Removing the Form limit

[Rameth]

As I said in this thread here I feel the Form limit should be removed.

I had problems with it before but because I wasn't planning on having my character master more then one form, possibly two as per the limit, I decided not to say anything about it. However now that the Jedi Battlemaster might be replaced it leads to new problems within the Order in picking another Battlemaster. How is the Order supposed to choose a Battlemaster when none of the Jedi have the sufficient skills required for the rank? It's not because the lack of interest in having your character learn the Forms but because of the limit on the Forms that no one meets the bill.

The other factions would have this same problem if their respective Battlemasters found themselves dead or suddenly taken out of position. They would leave an IC void of experience that would have to magically filled by someone who previously didn't have the same knowledge. That is a terrible way of picking a new Battlemaster. If there wasn't a Form limit then there could have been a Master or possibly a Knight who was experienced enough to fill the position. Then the Council could look at who had the experience and make a choice based on their knowledge instead of just picking whoever they feel will make a good Battlemaster and give them a power up.

Thoughts?

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

As I said in this thread here I feel the Form limit should be removed.

I had problems with it before but because I wasn't planning on having my character master more then one form, possibly two as per the limit, I decided not to say anything about it. However now that the Jedi Battlemaster might be replaced it leads to new problems within the Order in picking another Battlemaster. How is the Order supposed to choose a Battlemaster when none of the Jedi have the sufficient skills required for the rank? It's not because the lack of interest in having your character learn the Forms but because of the limit on the Forms that no one meets the bill.

The other factions would have this same problem if their respective Battlemasters found themselves dead or suddenly taken out of position. They would leave an IC void of experience that would have to magically filled by someone who previously didn't have the same knowledge. That is a terrible way of picking a new Battlemaster. If there wasn't a Form limit then there could have been a Master or possibly a Knight who was experienced enough to fill the position. Then the Council could look at who had the experience and make a choice based on their knowledge instead of just picking whoever they feel will make a good Battlemaster and give them a power up.

Thoughts?

Been thinking this for a long time, yes.

 

[Arm514ve]

No well at least not for Knight or Padawan levels maybe ounce you are a Master not haveing the limit would be fine for a couple of reasons, why I rather keep the limit for the lower ranks, is so we don't get Mary sue type padawans that automatically know all forums, and Knights who also know all the forms to be honest i like a limit because it can specialize a character. and knowing all the forms in my opinion is impossible especially how a lot of RPers love to be like we mastered all of them, my character is bad ass and you can't win! hahaha.

 

[Dmitri]

Generally, limits are there for a reason. Besides, it's difficulty changing the admins' minds on limits. I tried persuading them not to lower the character limit and that didn't go well.

 

[Rameth]

I do agree with a limit for Padawans and Knights at character creation. I understand that we don't want Padawans and Knights running around saying they know all the forms but once a character has been made they should be able to know what they want. How many people would actually take the time to RP learning all of the seven Forms let alone mastering them? It would take months to do IC but you should be allowed to do so if you want.

Saying you've mastered all the forms doesn't help you RP a battle. I'm not saying that the limit hinders your characters ability to fight I'm saying it hinders your characters ability to grow. If I raise my character from a Padawan to a Knight and I decide to focus on lightsaber combat I'll eventually hit a wall. My character can never know as much as the Battlemaster because of the limit. That effects my RP experience because for some unknown reason he can't expand his knowledge.

 

[Cisco]

Aye, Though I don't have much to say on the matter I do agree that the Hard Limit for the number of saber forms you can have in your repertoire is removed. I can understand the need for preventing every man, woman, child, and their grand mothers having mastered all them. However, removing the possibility of a person mastering all the forms, Something which would frankly take several months if not a year in real time. When a character is created I can understand the Initial need for a limit as it would feel sorta cheating if they suddenly wrote in mastery of all forms. But if a character spends the IC time to learn it I think the limit should be Passable.

Also, Many Jedi in the order had at least working knowledge of multiple forms. Pretty much everybody was capable with Shii-Cho And Jedi like Obi-Wan and Anakin also had Ataru And Soresu(Obi-Wan)/Djem-So(Anakin).

 

[Arm514ve]

You don't get what I'm saying as a Padawan you can know two, form 0, and another of your choice. at Knight you can learn two more, giving you four, and at Master rank which is the standard progression of things, you can learn the last three there you go. a working ranking system that fixes you issue of not knowing the same as a battle master, and keeping a limit on the newer characters and allows you to increase your character knowledge as you progress...... but to be honest i do like the limit and I don't really see the reason to remove it.

 

[Rameth]

That suggestion is alright, it's much better then the limit right now. At least by the time you get to Master level you can know all the forms. As it is right now Masters may only master three forms which is ridiculous.

That still doesn't fix the problem of "Master" being only a rank and not an actual level of power. A Knight may be more knowledgeable then a Master in lightsaber combat and Force techniques, which happens frequently throughout the EU, so limiting the forms to Master's only still doesn't fix the problem.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

We can revise the limit, but from a practical RP standing there has to be some kind of limit or restriction, otherwise people will just claim to be masters of or very proficient in every form. That used to happen a lot, and that's why the rule was introduced. It was an actual problem.

 

[Kalen Conner]

Well I don't even think the Battlemaster should be a master in all the forms. Shouldn't the Battlemaster be someone with superior duelling skills and tactical prowess in battle? Think that's what a Battlemaster should be.

Guys honestly there are a lot of things that won't be explained. Saying things will take a year IC is pointless. Same as saying it will take an OOC year or whatever. How is OOC time and IC time relevant at the moment? How much OOC time is in an IC year? People are ageing while others are not. So the chances of you learning are less realistic as opposed to the chances of you creating a character will all the forms.

Other matters needs to be discussed before we can discuss this as I agree if it should be removed that there should be some type of learning curve and a strict one at that.

My question is: Why would you want to know every form in the first place?

 

[Zach]

My belief is that to actually train a form, you need to literally RP out the steps of practicing and honing the skill. In this regard, it would work if it was only limited to Master and above, so RPers that aren't just knights and padawans or crusaders and acolytes can buff themselves up with a bunch of RPing to be 'masters' of the a certain form. As a master-level character, it would be realistic enough to be able to hone those skills and learn the forms through RPing the posts.

 

[Rameth]

The main thing I think needs to be changed is that Masters should be able to know all the Forms if they wanted to and worked for it. I would much rather there be no limit/restriction at all but if there is no way at least raise the limit to allow Masters to know all the Forms. Arms idea of 2 for Padawans, 4 for Knights and 7 for Masters is a much better improvement on the 1 for Padawan, 2 for Knights and 3 for Masters we have now.

Since we all know that there will be a large difference between Knights and Masters there shouldn't be a problem by allowing that. In addition being on the Council shouldn't determine how many you should know because you do not have to be skilled to be on the Council. Council members are chosen because they have good judgement and are loyal to the Order.

Maybe restricting them upon character creation could also fix the problem? After that you can progress normally, choosing to train in them if you wish. I don't think that many people would spend tons of time on training their character in multiple forms unless they really wanted to. You wouldn't have the problem of people popping characters up with to much knowledge and still allow the people who are making the lightsaber expert characters to know multiple Forms.

Well I don't even think the Battlemaster should be a master in all the forms. Shouldn't the Battlemaster be someone with superior duelling skills and tactical prowess in battle? Think that's what a Battlemaster should be.

Guys honestly there are a lot of things that won't be explained. Saying things will take a year IC is pointless. Same as saying it will take an OOC year or whatever. How is OOC time and IC time relevant at the moment? How much OOC time is in an IC year? People are ageing while others are not. So the chances of you learning are less realistic as opposed to the chances of you creating a character will all the forms.

Other matters needs to be discussed before we can discuss this as I agree if it should be removed that there should be some type of learning curve and a strict one at that.

My question is: Why would you want to know every form in the first place?

The Battlemaster is supposed to know all the Forms. That's his job. To know all the Forms and teach the younger Jedi whichever Form suits them. As a by product he was usually the best dueler in the Order but that's necessarily true.

In regards to your last sentence that's like saying "Why would you want to know all those Force Powers? You can still be a good character with 5" Or "Why would you want to have all those weapons? You only need a blaster rifle". It's about character flavor. You give your military character training so many areas because you want to portray that he is experienced. Same thing with the lightsaber forms.

The way I feel about it is that having more then even one lightsaber form is solely for flavor. Saying "My character knows 5 forms so that means I'm faster then you!" doesn't fly here so I don't see the point of saying there's a problem with people knowing a multiple forms. I can see how it could bug people but limiting them to the degree they are now isn't the answer.

My belief is that to actually train a form, you need to literally RP out the steps of practicing and honing the skill. In this regard, it would work if it was only limited to Master and above, so RPers that aren't just knights and padawans or crusaders and acolytes can buff themselves up with a bunch of RPing to be 'masters' of the a certain form. As a master-level character, it would be realistic enough to be able to hone those skills and learn the forms through RPing the posts.

Why can't Knights/Crusaders train to learn more forms? There's no reason to restrict them when they are fully capable of learning on their own. You could say the same thing about advanced Force powers. Should Knights not be allowed to learn certain powers because they are advanced? If they put the time and training into it they should be able to learn it just like Masters can.

 

[Kalen Conner]

And how will that transfer to time though?

Like someone said earlier. A knight can sometimes be better skilled than a master in certain things. And it can certainly be realistic to have one person learn something faster than the next person. In fact it is fair if the person learning faster puts more effort into it. But it all comes down to time. It took months or years to learn a form and even longer to master one.

We need to sort out the whole time thing before we can say: Look it'll take this much for you to be this good at something.

I don't see a 21 year old mastering even two forms and still be 21 after he did. No one here is the Jedi Exile except Kelly Cross. lol

I got woken up falling out of bed into my closet. So excuse me if u sound a bit rough.

Anyway I just feel its is plain stupid if one were to think that any one person should be a master in all the forms. Having knowledge of all the forms yes but master it all no.

That and everyone who has done a sport in rl would know that yes there are talented individuals but talent is no replacement for experience.

The more you do something the more you find out about what works and doesn't.

And just again the Battlemaster can't realistically be a master in all the forms unless he lived like for hundreds of years or is talented enough to have learn all those and that would be a minimum of what 40-50 years.

All of this is pointless if we don't consider the learning time for these things.

 

[HunterOrdo]

Just my two cents:

Padawans should have two max simply because all Jedi know Form I to some extent, and one more form as that is the one they are learning. I think this is perfectly fine as many of the "Ha I am awesome cause I know everything! mwuaha" people don't tend to make it past Padawan with that mentality (of course I could be wrong.)

Knights and Master is where I think it is getting muddled. If a Knight spends almost all his time training in lightsaber combat, I believe he has every right to know as many forms as he can cram in (and frankly if he spends that amount of time to learn them all then he deserves to know them.) Of course, a Knight that spends that much time learning lightsaber forms is going to suffer in his ability to use the Force, but I believe that comes down to RPer responsibility in knowing.

There should be no limits on Knights and Masters. When a padawan becomes a Knight, he only knows the original two forms he started with. If he has form I (which is the one I believe all Padawans should have no matter what), and form II, then as a knight he should only have those. If he wants to learn Form III then he should go learn it.

I think this allows for a fair and equal playing field. People who believe limits should be removed get what they desire, and people who understand that forms are there for a reason get their desire in the form of the padawan restriction.

 

[Lavi]

I've looked at the form limit as a limit to form mastery, which has nothing to do with knowledge of different forms. Knowing the philosophies and basic techniques of every form is different than actively utilizing them in their most efficient style.

 

[Sreeya]

Lol as someone that knows a lot about rp fighting, I'd personally get rid of forms altogether. When you're in an rp fight, you react to attacks as they come. You don't sit there and think "hmm, well let's see how to use this form to defend", you just defend based on the circumstance you're given. Similarly, if my opponent decides to acrobatically attack or dodge, I don't say "HEY your char doesn't know Ataru!!". If I had it my way, I'd teach people how to get down the key basics of defending/attacking with a saber and work on mastering that and becoming flexible. Forms make sense in the SW universe, but in rping, it's more about being able to effectively write combat and forms don't mean jack.

 

[Demiurge]

Lightsaber forms amount to jack when it comes to actual RPing, and everyone knows it - or should know it. It's all just bells and whistles on a profile page, it amounts to nothing when it comes to a fight. The better RPer wins battles. If you can't fight well in an RP, it doesn't matter how many forms you know, you're gonna get beat or killed.

 

[Sreeya]

Lightsaber forms amount to jack when it comes to actual RPing, and everyone knows it - or should know it. It's all just bells and whistles on a profile page, it amounts to nothing when it comes to a fight. The better RPer wins battles. If you can't fight well in an RP, it doesn't matter how many forms you know, you're gonna get beat or killed.

Good thing that's not exactly what I just said :CAbove

 

[Demiurge]

Good thing that's not exactly what I just said :CAbove

Yep, good thing :CStern

 

[The Gloaming]

Lol as someone that knows a lot about rp fighting, I'd personally get rid of forms altogether. When you're in an rp fight, you react to attacks as they come. You don't sit there and think "hmm, well let's see how to use this form to defend", you just defend based on the circumstance you're given. Similarly, if my opponent decides to acrobatically attack or dodge, I don't say "HEY your char doesn't know Ataru!!". If I had it my way, I'd teach people how to get down the key basics of defending/attacking with a saber and work on mastering that and becoming flexible. Forms make sense in the SW universe, but in rping, it's more about being able to effectively write combat and forms don't mean jack.

I see your point, but there are some who use Forms mores for character development than anything. Lightsaber Forms don't have to be limited to lightsaber combat. Many of the forms are also philosophical paths, like Soresu being the embodiment of a passive Jedi, or Niman being the Diplomats form. Vapaad is clearly more than just a physical form of combat, it is a form of mental/spiritual combat as well. And yes, I have seen others utilize the forms for more than combat.