Removing the Form limit

[Zach]

I agree in full with Sreeya and Xeno, but I still feel the need to actually RP out learning the forms, for one singular reason: People will always find a reason to complain and call out stuff saying that it's cheap or you can't do it. I figure that if I actually have the stuff practiced and trained in past threads, then I have the physical proof to rebuttal with saying, "No it's not, I've RPed out the training for it." This is mostly in regards to Ataru, since I most likely anticipate this argument to come up with "You didn't have enough time to acrobatically avoid me," or something along the lines of that.

All in all, it's your skill in writing and RP dueling that really matters. The rest of this is just a record for your character if you wish it. The limitations on this record is the matter at hand, in my opinion.

 

[Kalen Conner]

I agree with the Lavinator.

As for sreeya and xeno: Say Whaaaaat!?

Well what you guys say in true in a sense but I've been told on more than one occasion that better rping doesn't equal winning a fight. There is no known way of winning a fight I know of other than discussion it with the person you're fighting.

That and forms allow for a guideline to how a character fights. There is nothing wrong with someone who doesn't know Ataru to do a back flip to avoid a strike but doing a back flip then going into a cartwheel then doing a somersault and going into a roll towards a wall and running up a wall and doing another back flip. Well then I think that person should see a rp shrink about his/her Mary Sue obsession.

 

[Veritas et Lux]

I say we keep the limit, and whoever should be the new battle master has to go through extensive cramming and training. Or there should be some kind of specific training for the battle master. I like the limit and the reasoning behind it so far, and to revise it would make equal sense as to the reasoning behind it. But abolishing the limit, is a no no.

 

[Sreeya]

I agree with the Lavinator.

As for sreeya and xeno: Say Whaaaaat!?

Well what you guys say in true in a sense but I've been told on more than one occasion that better rping doesn't equal winning a fight. There is no known way of winning a fight I know of other than discussion it with the person you're fighting.

That and forms allow for a guideline to how a character fights. There is nothing wrong with someone who doesn't know Ataru to do a back flip to avoid a strike but doing a back flip then going into a cartwheel then doing a somersault and going into a roll towards a wall and running up a wall and doing another back flip. Well then I think that person should see a rp shrink about his/her Mary Sue obsession.

But you can argue that allows the person who knows Ataru to do ridiculous acrobatics to dodge everything, or for someone to know a more defensive form and block every attack. There are extremes in both circumstances. However, I believe you can be an expert just with the saber in general. Regardless, I like Gloaming's point about the forms being more than about combat and having it be about the discipline. I'd like to see that more in training, personally, as I don't think people use that approach too often.

 

[The Gloaming]

I think the question has turned into something quite different.

What is SWRPing?
Star Wars Role Playing.

When you begin to question the necessity of forms at all, then you've overstepped a boundary of sorts. We're here to write stories. I know, these characters and situations of ours aren't canon to the star wars universe, but they are canon to the SWRP universe, which obviously revolves around the Star Wars universe.

Lightsaber combat is essential in Star Wars, because there was a time in real life when sword combat was essential to us. Over the years, we developed countless martial arts and weapon styles, because that's how someone learns to fight. Not with a stick and an angry bees nest, with repitition of form.

So if we're here to write SWRP stories with SWRP characters, then of course lightsaber forms are necessary.

Now, limitation is necessary as well. I don't want to repeat what's all been said (though I can't help it if I do), so this is my bottom line. Revise the limitation. Two forms in a lifetime may be realistic for some characters, but not for others. It takes years of experience to master forms, so let the people spend those years how they see fit, be it with lightsaber combat, force use, or diplomacy. Either way, now matter how many years it takes, nobody's ever going to be at an unrealistic advantage when paired with someone who is of the same age and experience, though they may follow different paths of specialization.

 

[Kalen Conner]

No, sreeya because as rpers we should be realistic enough to rp being hit. Otherwise you're just role-playing an all-powerful character.

Just an added note. Has anyone seen a lightsaber fight before? The longest one I think is between Anakin and Obi-Wan. It consisted of mostly dodges and blocks, right? Force Push here, kick in the gut there. This is what it should be at the end of the day. Sorry but this is a bit off topic but most of the time if you get cut by a lightsaber its over. How many times have you seen someone just get cut by a lightsaber, get up, and continue fighting?

 

[The Gloaming]

How many times have you seen someone just get cut by a lightsaber, get up, and continue fighting?

Jacen solo did it several times. Also, in videogames, it happens all the time. Hell, you can get shot up and take a magic potion and you're fine!

No, but seriously, you're right. Though it is a bit off topic.

 

[Zach]

I feel as though Tutaminis comes into effect at many of those circumstances, for one. Also, there are man lightsaber battles in the Star Wars Clone Wars TV show. I used to hate it because of the animation and its target audience of kids, but it actually gets pretty deep and darkish at times. They have some very good quality combat maneuvers and tactics, with realistic duels. I find it very impressive.

 

[Kalen Conner]

We can discuss that after this thread but I'm glad you agree gloaming and Zach that's where I actually got the mindset of winning a fight doesn't mean you've killed that person.

How many times did one retreat when he/she noticed victory is unattainable.

Back on topic I agree with Prince of Persia that there shouldn't really be limits. I mean what stops us from learning everything there is in the world? Well time for one. That's where I agree with Lavi about having knowledge in a form without actually being a practitioner of that form in battle.

So in summary this is what I think should happen. The limit we have now stays on three at maximum. This is for use in battle. The rest can be not learnt but researched. This mean that the person will for example practice three forms and have knowledge on the other four. This would be the perfect candidate for the Battlemaster. As a Battlemaster can only instruct others in the basics anyway and does not need to be able to fight in that form to teach others. Knowing about something also means you can incorporate it into something you already know.

Was it gloaming who said that the forms are in the end nothing more than philosophies on how that person decides to fight. 100% correct. I'm angry that I didn't say that first.

If the Prince isn't happy with this than I don't know what will make him happy. Smoke and a pancake maybe?

 

[Mars]

I'mma just toss my two cents in on this.....

I personally look at each of the lightsaber forms how I look at individual martial arts in real life. Muay Thai, Krav Maga, BJJ, Judo, Boxing, Wrestling, etc are all parts of hand to hand combat just like Juyo, Shien, Soresu etc are parts of lightsaber combat. Realistically, you couldn't hope to MASTER many forms unless you really, really dedicated yourself to it, which would lead to far weaker Force skills. I think a lot of people don't realize how much dedication and work it takes to master something like this and just want the shiny mastery level for their profile, especially with how little bearing it actually has on RP fights.

 

[The Gloaming]

I'mma just toss my two cents in on this.....

I personally look at each of the lightsaber forms how I look at individual martial arts in real life. Muay Thai, Krav Maga, BJJ, Judo, Boxing, Wrestling, etc are all parts of hand to hand combat just like Juyo, Shien, Soresu etc are parts of lightsaber combat. Realistically, you couldn't hope to MASTER many forms unless you really, really dedicated yourself to it, which would lead to far weaker Force skills. I think a lot of people don't realize how much dedication and work it takes to master something like this and just want the shiny mastery level for their profile, especially with how little bearing it actually has on RP fights.

You said the magic words. Way to go chief.

I agree with this.

:CScool

 

[Rameth]

@ Sreeya and Xeno

I do agree that the actual Forms themselves have no effect on how well you RP. I actually said that in my earlier post but having training IC should greatly effect how you RP fighting with your character. I've heard multiple people say on this site that a Padawan could beat a Master if he was a skilled enough RPer but that Padawan must first have IC combat training. I would also say that the Padawan should lose regardless of how well the RPer can fight. His lack of experience and training would make the fight much harder for him and the RPer should make note of that. Although it's up to the RPers themselves to acknowledge these types of things when they fight another character. IC training and knowledge should count for something. Even if it's only to show which of the characters is more experienced and how each participant of the fight should react to the others attacks/defenses.

@ Kalen

You can't teach something you only have a basic knowledge of because you will be teaching it wrong. Also the Battlemaster is supposed to know all the Forms. If he doesn't, he's not the Battlemaster. You can't just say "Ah well I don't think he needs to know them all" cause that's the whole point of the position. He is the master of battle lol. It's his job to teach the members of the Order the details of all the Forms.

Also as to your mention of the time it takes well you can't really bring that up because it would cause a whole other stir of problems. For example how can you bring your Padawan up to Knight level within a few months, let alone Master? Even if that takes considerably more time. That's impossible so you can't really apply it here. Time is variable on this board and you can't change that.

Also the Prince of Perisa thing was funny but that's not my username. Please use the correct one from now on. No this isn't an aggravation towards you this comes from another site where I was on where they refused to use my username and it eventually came to just piss me off. So please refrain from doing so.

@ Mars

I don't really think you can apply RL learning experience into Star Wars at least when it concerns the Force. I don't exactly agree that the Forms are as intricate as the RL styles you mentioned but I can see how you could come to that comparison. I also don't agree that in order to excel in lightsaber combat that you have to have a drawback in the Force department. Multiple characters throughout the EU were excellent lightsaber combatants as well as excellent Force users and no I'm not just talking about the Dark Lord or the Grandmaster.

 

[Kalen Conner]

I agree with you Prin.. I mean Rameth.

Well, a new character should be created with an extensive history concerning learning and mastering all the forms. Since how much training and how much battle experience would a person need to obtain all that knowledge. Tell me how old do you think a character must be to become a battlemaster?

The battlemaster is also not the best duelist in the Order as Anakin literally killed the battlemaster with one hand behind his back.

Kyle Katarn only knew three styles of lightsaber combat but became the new battlemaster because of his battle experience.

There are a lot of things to consider. Having a 21 year old mastering all the forms are idiocy. Having a 21 year old turn 35 in two months (while everyone else stays the same age) even more so. Imagine!lmao Player A a Knight of 21 taught Player B a Padawan of 16 today. Next week the Padawan is a 40 year old battlemaster. While the knight is still 21.

 

[Dmitri]

I would agree what was stated earlier. When you're in an RP, you work as hard as you can to keep your character alive. You're going to block it whatever way you can within reason, not go "oops, Shii-Cho isn't acrobatic enough for me to block that attack. I guess I better just let it cut me in half." When RPing, people take aspects from many forms, whatever is needed to help counter their opponent's moves.

However, I agree also with what was saying earlier. Instead of seeing lightsaber combat training as learning and being confined to a singular form, it should be done as a manner to discipline one in the ways of the lightsaber.

 

[Dread]

I agree with Sreeya/Xeno/Mars.

It honestly seems like those who want more forms just want to have the ability to put more gold stars in their profiles. Force power lists seem to be the same way sometimes. Why even bother to have a list?

My suggestion is to give yourself more freedom by not hyper focusing on those lists in your profile. Spend more time learning how to fight the way you feel comfortable. Use "Forms" like most people use credits here. It's just something to add a star wasy feeling to the role play. Something people would rather you not go overboard with so things stay as realistic as possible.

I also don't see any issues with aging your character as you see fit. How else will you age your character on a role play forum? A chart? Aging rules? Those are just more rules that restrict creativity aka take away from the free form rp.

 

[Kalen Conner]

How does ageing restrict creativity? Explain to me how getting older while everyone around you, all you IC relationships and bonds you built, stays the same age. Please shed some light on that for me because I simply can't comprehend how ageing can restrict a person from being creative.

 

[Rameth]

I don't understand your thinking Radzkie. You say to ignore making lists because it takes away from your creativity (which I solely disagree with but that's not the topic on hand) but isn't that exactly what implementing a limit/restriction does as well? I've already explained multiple times why I would like to have the possibility to learn all the Forms and none of my reasons have to do with making my profile shinier. It's the fact that it creates an IC void of experience and knowledge that shouldn't be there in the first place. I actually wouldn't even be mentioning this if the Battlemaster didn't know all the Forms but he does so therein lies the problem.

Also Kalen please keep talk of aging characters out of the thread. Or at least until the staff have given an answer.

Regardless of all that what is the judgement on this? Can the Form limit/restriction be revised if not able to be removed completely?

 

[Kalen Conner]

Ok I will but answer me this:

How do you get experience in anything? What is the constant? Time.

What are the side effects of time? Ageing.

What does that all mean? Without time there cannot be experience.

Anyway I agree with you that anyone should be able to master all the forms for whatever reason they have for wanting to do so. But realism is cardinal. Without experience aka time aka ageing there cannot be any justification for anyone learning so many styles of fighting.

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

But realism is cardinal.

Did you seriously just say that?

 

[Kalen Conner]

Lol But of course I did, Daddy Cool.