Attack on Dorin OOC

[Santoro]

Now you're getting it!

Fact of the matter is mate, if the owners of the characters didn't want to die they shouldn't have involved themselves in a war. Casualties are inevitable.

Sure, in actual fighting. Two post winning isn't fair under any circumstances- there was an entire thread to set up ours while there wasn't in this case.

 

[Green Ranger]

Sure, in actual fighting. Two post winning isn't fair under any circumstances- there was an entire thread to set up ours while there wasn't in this case.

So, seeing an opening and taking it is unfair?

 

[Dmitri]

Sure, in actual fighting. Two post winning isn't fair under any circumstances- there was an entire thread to set up ours while there wasn't in this case.

There has been a lot of OOC action and planning. Operations were started a long time ago by Bianca's group until she was put on standby.

 

[Santoro]

So, seeing an opening and taking it is unfair?

I've explained why I feel this is unfair.

There has been a lot of OOC action and planning. Operations were started a long time ago by Bianca's group until she was put on standby.

Right, there's OOC planning in everything. IC preparation is important, too.


Edit: In addition, I should point out that ultimately it's up to the Hutt side which ships go out first, and I'm sure people I've planned with can reinforce our pre-established plan of sending Kel'Dor out first.

 

[Dmitri]

I've explained why I feel this is unfair.



Right, there's OOC planning in everything. IC preparation is important, too.

Because so much of that occurred in Ando Prime too, and that still went on ahead. To my recollection, the complaining originated from during the battle, not before it.

 

[Empress]

how much IC prep time is there, really? Message comes " oh hey guys we spot a hutt fleet here...." then talk about it for 5 min or so...make a call to the stronghold of haven " a mere blink of an eye from dorin"

your right there near coruscant...I mean look out at the stars in that direction and you should eb able to easily see the coruscant system as a pretty bright star.

the ability to reply is like zero

there was also the entire ic arrival for the hutts, and making planet fall and starting before I said OOCly/ICly that the republic would NOT send a military force there to meet the hutts in battle

we sent 5 people " counting the pilot" in a shuttle

when the knowledge on how to execute such a plan has been in place even before the time jump. well.. it's SOLAG, they knew full well what they are expected to do and just do it.

to be honest Im not looking nor expecting a total wipe out, though thats the more realistic outcome I know full well it wont fly without alot of fighting. I also though dont think there is a reason to try and stonewall.

Turn the tables.. sure something similar happened to the senate, cut it how you want the principal was the same.. but lets go beyond that..

Lets say we make a bold move in a precarious area and did not take precautions right off the bat lets say the republic was the ones in this exact situation.

how would boli and I react ? ( saying boli and I as he's the grand admiral) oocly we would take a deep breath, go " oh ****.. well... okay....lets take precautions to make sure THAT wont happen again" and let nature take its course.

and believe me I don't look for ways out when there really isn't any you out maneuver me in a way that falls into plausible I congratulate it, and move on... for future reference

 

[Dmitri]

One thing could warn the Hutts of this plan and won't happen, to my knowledge since no Bogan or Force users came: a Force sensitive sensing something wrong and warning the Hutts, though whether the Hutts would actually listen or not I don't know.

 

[Jake]

Well, you guys had a good plan, but there are certain holes in the logic behind it.

First and foremost (note: I've only skimmed over most of the posts in this argument, but I will be quoting certain things from Jiang in particular), I've heard you're comparing this to the attack on the Senate.

There was an entire thread of preparation for the attack on the senate and if there hadn't been bitching would've dragged it down far worse than this one has been. Jiang made two posts that solidified this plan, but it's alright. I'm not complaining of the amount of IC preparation that went into it since, at most, you could have had a thread briefing Jiang's NPCs.

Anyway. All of the quotes I'm pulling are from the article for hyperspace beacons on the SW wiki. Others are coming from Jiang's posts.

Also, the way I understand Hyperspace beacons working, they only update a navicomputer once you access the beacon, and that sort of update is wholly normal and wouldn't raise any eyebrows since a helmsman would've seen it hundreds or thousands of times before depending on his/her time at the helm.

Nope.

"Pirates and Hutts sometimes reprogrammed the beacons to transmit incorrect coordinates to ships, sending them into deep space so the ships could be ambushed and pillaged far from the interference of the Republic."

"Reliability of available data was only about 80%."

Both of these point to the idea that an experienced helmsman would actually double or even triple check the data once he'd received it to make sure that the coordinates made sense. The fact that there was only an 80% reliability for any given beacon would be ample reason to make sure that you weren't being sent off to some random location.

That said, I don't know why Hutt/pirate tactics worked that way considering what I just said, but anyway. The knowledge that reprogramming hyperspace beacons is a seminal Hutt harassment strategy would mean that most Hutt captains are likely instructed to make sure they aren't being lured into their own trap.

"A local network might require as many as twenty jump beacons, with an individual beacon transmitting astrogational information from a ship to the rest of the network."

What this means is:

a) There is no "primary" hyperspace beacon for the Dorin system.

b) Jiang only mentioned reprogramming one hyperspace beacon. Obviously that means that until a ship passes through and the information is updated, only that hyperspace beacon is affected. In fact unless this is a reasonably persistent computer virus and not just muddling with the output coordinates, if the Hutts use ANY other hyperspace beacon from up to twenty, the one being messed with would automatically reset and the whole trap would have failed.

Now, as for the fleet dallying in leaving, I kinda have to disagree with you there. There's no logical reason to leave a fully stocked, ready-to-rumble fleet sitting in orbit over a neutral world when there'd be little to no reason for the Republic to try to attack it. They've got bigger things to worry about than Dorin, and keeping the fleet on the move and keeping the pressure on would be more important to the Hutts than babysitting the Taung and other ground forces as they beat the crap out of poorly armed local yokels. A few fighter squads and an army group or two would be more than sufficient, number-wise, to wholly suppress Dorin until a dedicated peacekeeping force could arrive.

Uh, what do we have to worry about that's more important than Dorin? Dorin is our closest push to the Core yet; any force that's sitting there to occupy it would be there for awhile. Even if there was no defense waiting for them, that's just reason to stick around thinking that one's en route or will be shortly.

Besides that, it's not like "hey, planet's ours, we better skedaddle". Firstly, the Hutts have plenty of fleets to spare one near their Core-most world to avoid it being captured. After all, Dorin may be our new foothold as we push further towards the Deep Core/Coruscant.

Secondly, the fleet has to run standard checks. They need to make sure there are no problems on any vessel, they have to restock provisions, commanders have to return from conferring with the planet's local leaders, and until we send the order that fleet will actually just sit there "collecting dust". Obviously we don't want that, but it can and probably will be in-system for days or weeks doing things before it's given the okay to head out again.

Do you think an altered hyperspace beacon is going to go unnoticed for weeks?

In-system trade, pirates, mercenary groups and other parties have to worry about it. Daily traffic would range at minimum in dozens of vessels. Out of 12 ships, at least one is going to be able to get word back. Besides that, if every single ship that's supposed to come in is thrust somewhere into random deep space, the Hutt fleet will take notice. That's just not normal.

Also.

Navicomputers weren't very advanced until the Mandalorian Wars. At the current period of time astronavigation would probably be somewhat rudimentary. Physical maps might even still be in use; regardless, everything points AWAY from the Hutt captains not noticing this trap and not being able to avoid it.

But I would like to congratulate everyone involved on the Republic side for an excellent idea. One that I will make sure to consider for future encounters with you. :D

 

[Jiang Winters]

Nope.

"Pirates and Hutts sometimes reprogrammed the beacons to transmit incorrect coordinates to ships, sending them into deep space so the ships could be ambushed and pillaged far from the interference of the Republic."

"Reliability of available data was only about 80%."

Both of these point to the idea that an experienced helmsman would actually double or even triple check the data once he'd received it to make sure that the coordinates made sense. The fact that there was only an 80% reliability for any given beacon would be ample reason to make sure that you weren't being sent off to some random location.

That said, I don't know why Hutt/pirate tactics worked that way considering what I just said, but anyway. The knowledge that reprogramming hyperspace beacons is a seminal Hutt harassment strategy would mean that most Hutt captains are likely instructed to make sure they aren't being lured into their own trap.

Hi Wordsie! Debates with you are always fun. <3

OK, on to srs bsnss!

So, I'm not sure that it's even possible to double-check the co-ordinates the Beacon gives the helmsman. For lack of better wording, you'd need a copy of the original coordinates to check against the new ones to see if you were given fakes, and if you had a copy of the original coordinates just laying around -which, if a Clone Wars-era astromech droid can only hold one or two coordinates, must take up a TON of storage space and would thus be impossible to store on paper- then... Well, if you had the original coordinates, why even use a nav beacon? It'd be pointless. [Honestly, the idea of using beacons in the timeline seems very silly to me since both sides could just go 'LOL MASSIVE ENCRYPTION' and lock enemy ships out of their hyperspace network, which'd be hilariously cheap]

Anyways, that's why I don't think it's plausible for a helmsman to be able to check his coordinates.

"A local network might require as many as twenty jump beacons, with an individual beacon transmitting astrogational information from a ship to the rest of the network."

What this means is:

a) There is no "primary" hyperspace beacon for the Dorin system.

b) Jiang only mentioned reprogramming one hyperspace beacon. Obviously that means that until a ship passes through and the information is updated, only that hyperspace beacon is affected. In fact unless this is a reasonably persistent computer virus and not just muddling with the output coordinates, if the Hutts use ANY other hyperspace beacon from up to twenty, the one being messed with would automatically reset and the whole trap would have failed.

A) I referred to it as a 'primary' beacon for convenience, plus to denote that it received more traffic than the other beacons. Could've also been used by the Hutt Navy to justify sending a fighter wing out to jump back and report their victory, potentially catching Raven Lead in the act, soooo... ;)

B) Actually, I expressly wrote that the beacon would update all other beacons in the network with the new data. From what I understand, the beacons weren't updated by the ships passing through them but rather by the Republic Spacelane Bureau, so even if a ship did jump through a different beacon before the updates were complete it still wouldn't affect the 'Primary' beacon or other affected beacons.

Uh, what do we have to worry about that's more important than Dorin? Dorin is our closest push to the Core yet; any force that's sitting there to occupy it would be there for awhile. Even if there was no defense waiting for them, that's just reason to stick around thinking that one's en route or will be shortly.

Besides that, it's not like "hey, planet's ours, we better skedaddle". Firstly, the Hutts have plenty of fleets to spare one near their Core-most world to avoid it being captured. After all, Dorin may be our new foothold as we push further towards the Deep Core/Coruscant.

Secondly, the fleet has to run standard checks. They need to make sure there are no problems on any vessel, they have to restock provisions, commanders have to return from conferring with the planet's local leaders, and until we send the order that fleet will actually just sit there "collecting dust". Obviously we don't want that, but it can and probably will be in-system for days or weeks doing things before it's given the okay to head out again.

Do you think an altered hyperspace beacon is going to go unnoticed for weeks?

In-system trade, pirates, mercenary groups and other parties have to worry about it. Daily traffic would range at minimum in dozens of vessels. Out of 12 ships, at least one is going to be able to get word back. Besides that, if every single ship that's supposed to come in is thrust somewhere into random deep space, the Hutt fleet will take notice. That's just not normal.

HerpDerp, didn't think about that. Point taken, good sir. Point taken.

Also.

Navicomputers weren't very advanced until the Mandalorian Wars. At the current period of time astronavigation would probably be somewhat rudimentary. Physical maps might even still be in use; regardless, everything points AWAY from the Hutt captains not noticing this trap and not being able to avoid it.

But I would like to congratulate everyone involved on the Republic side for an excellent idea. One that I will make sure to consider for future encounters with you. :D

Actually, if my guess about hyperspace coordinates is correct and you need a massive amount of data storage in able to hold any number of them, then there's no way you'd be able to store jump coordinates on paper. Also, if navicomputers are so rudimentary then it's highly unlikely that they'd actually pick up on an act of sabotage, so it's very unlikely that a Captain would notice the trap.

[Also, the only reason the Rep fighters were able to store the hyperspace coordinates for the trip back home is because they locked the coordinates into their hyperdrives; all they'd need to do is spool up the drives and jump - no need to pull nav data.]

Anywho! I just found an absolutely massive flaw in the anti-nav-beacon plan, and it's making me kinda giggle because I can't believe I didn't see it before. Here it is:

The prime limiting factor for hyperspace travel that I'm seeing right now is that a ship or group of ships needs to use a hyperspace beacon because they don't have the storage space necessary to hold jump coordinates or the computing power necessary to calculate jump coordinates - which isn't necessary as we've all seen, since astromech droids alone are able to safely get a ship from point A to point B without the use of an actual navicomputer.

So it seems to me that the big limiting factor here is how much computing power and storage space a ship has available, and in this era, it took a satellite sized supercomputer to hold nav data. The article's wording isn't precise enough for me to feel comfortable making any assumptions, but let's just assume that Nav Beacons in SW work just like Mass Relays from Mass Effect; they come in two flavors. One type sends you a huge distance from one point to another and only between those two points, while the other sends you to absolutely any other beacon within a smaller radius.

What that leads me to ask is this:

Why hasn't somebody just jammed one of these puppies into the hold of a cargo ship and made a 'Hyperspace Beacon Ship' yet? It seems easy enough and it'd wholly eliminate the need for military fleets to rely on nav beacons.

At any rate, it also makes the Republic raid a little silly since we were able to cram enough data into one man-portable drive to dick with an entire supercomputer. Even if we assumed that the drive my guys took held, say, 50 terabytes of data, for all we know a single set of hyperspace coordinates might take up an entire terabyte of data or more so... Yeah. Actually mucking with every single conceivable destination for the fleet there would be more or less impossible at that point, and it'd only bring out the following question:

If the Republic can store jump data on a gigantic flash drive from hell, why can't the Hutts just store backup data on their warships? Furthermore, why can't the Republic do the same? [Answer is that I don't think any of us actually thought about hyperspace tech like this before. I know I didn't.]

Anyways, BUH. I hereby decree that, if this attack is ruled to be ineffective -which, after thinking about this from an admin standpoint, is actually fairly likely - then I want to change the modded coordinates into a porno bomb that floods the helmsmen's terminals with My Little Pony pr0nz and makes every display screen in the ship show dancing rainbow unicorns.

Yes, I'm serious. I want to torment Sid's navigators with MLP pr0n. :CStern

 

[Dread]

then I want to change the modded coordinates into a porno bomb that floods the helmsmen's terminals with My Little Pony pr0nz and makes every display screen in the ship show dancing rainbow unicorns.

It was good up till the my little pony part...then it became a terrorist attack.

 

[Jiang Winters]

It was good up till the my little pony part...then it became a terrorist attack.

Would you prefer porn of my char Jiang? 'cuz I could def provide that. :CScool

 

[Green Ranger]

Would you prefer porn of my char Jiang? 'cuz I could def provide that. :CScool

And just like that, I'll never be able to sleep again.

 

[Empress]

sadly wookie only gives so much data on hyper drives of this era, and it makes it sound that astromechs are not that advanced yet ( if you can ceam the storage and calculating ability into them, why not a navi computer which is still thousands of years off.)

so yeah all of us are still pretty boned on that level.

but here is the major thing, Dorin is a useless resource for the republic at this time, and doing anything to it would spend money and man power we need more else where.

sabotaging the beacons would take a while to figure out it's been screwed with.. yes it will eventually be fixed, but thats stalling that fleet weeks or months

and more importantly sends a very clear message that they can't be so cocky walking into territories without taking major stock in the environment because if you dont, were going to utilize it against you 100% of the time when it's advantageous.

 

[Jake]

I'm not sure if you want me to make a comprehensive reply to that Jiang, since you seemed to answer a lot of things yourself, but if you want me to I will.

 

[Jiang Winters]

I'm not sure if you want me to make a comprehensive reply to that Jiang, since you seemed to answer a lot of things yourself, but if you want me to I will.

I want you to beg me not to spam the entire hutt armada with a one-two combo of furry porn and my little pony porn. I want you to beg on your hands and knees, then offer your unconditional surrender.

:CStern

[Read as: Reply not required. ^^]

 

[Jake]

Please, I have seen horrors far darker than mere furry porn.

Our soldiers are trained against such petty tactics. You would not tease one erection from a single troop in any of our fleets.

Except Radz. Don't know about him.

 

[Wit]

So am I getting porn or what?

 

[Jiang Winters]

So am I getting porn or what?

Yes. All of it is of Jiang Winters, with some My Little Pony mixed in. Oh, and if you look really hard, you might find a few of Samanya and Ellie. Enjoy your pornobomb, Sid, Lord of the Flame or whatever it is you're called. [/ice age reference]

 

[Wit]

Enjoy your pornobomb, Sid, Lord of the Flame or whatever it is you're called. [/ice age reference]

Ah, so you have discovered who I am. Yes, it is indeed I, Sid, the true Lord of the Furries, also known as the Lord of the Flame, the one to whome you owe your allegiance. Bow before my burning tail little kitty.

PS. I demand sloth porn. These cats of yours do nothing for me.

 

[Garuga]

Ah, so you have discovered who I am. Yes, it is indeed I, Sid, the true Lord of the Furries, also known as the Lord of the Flame, the one to whome you owe your allegiance. Bow before my burning tail little kitty.

PS. I demand sloth porn. These cats of yours do nothing for me.

Stop encouraging his shenanigans! :CCry1

Has the outcome been decided yet at all? (Half-hearted stay back on topic attempt)