The Cartel's Identiy

[Toska]

Bac gave me an interesting suggestion earlier when I began discussing the Cartel's current state relative to the timeline. I'd like to ask all members of the Cartel how they envision the faction and what they think it should be doing. Consequently, I'd also like opinions on how the Cartel is in its current state and whether or not it should continue that way.

In its conception, the Cartel was given certain limits, particularly in terms of military power. The Cartel was intended to be an economic powerhouse capable of rousing a mercenary army by virtue of its accumulated wealth should the need arise, but acted towards the expansion of its industry instead to increase its weight on the galactic stage. The way I see it, the Cartel as it is currently being played is nothing more than a glorified version of the Retrade; an independent faction wearing pants it can't fill.

It lacks an identity, something to distinguish itself from the other independent factions and main factions alike. And that is crucial in its development. The Cartel is a central part of this timeline -- a foundation from which the story can unfold. That is why I want to see it thrive rather than surviving off plot-armor and administrative dictation. I don't want to push all of this onto the leadership -- that's just unfair. They can't create a faction alone, and shouldn't be expected to. We, the members, need to help them, and this is the best way I can think of towards that end.

So please, any input is appreciated.

 

[Apollyon]

I actually enjoy the level of freedom we have, this is a criminal faction unlike the other main factions it's definition is a highly adaptable one as it doesn't focus purely on one thing at this time. Instead it feels like Gaja is letting our individual characters help define what the faction is, but ultimately it is a criminal faction, and criminals have many different faces, so does the Hutt Cartel. That's my opinion

 

[Just Matt Now]

I agree to an extent, although I do not think it's so much similar to the Retrade. The Retrade, while was definitely a great set up for the Cartel, cannot/did not offer some of the things the Cartel has offered. Being defined as a criminal organization in public, opens up a new face to this type of crime. More freedom and more aggressive style we have tried to create, differentiates it from the Retrade.

Please everyone, add what you think or suggest. It is greatly appreciated.

 

[Dóiteán]

I still think we need exploding bunnies.

 

[Nor'baal]

As far as I see it, the cartel is a loose collection of Hutt Lords. Like the Cartel of Old, the highest and most powerful hutts band together and form the Cartel. It is not an empire, it is simply a 'non aggression alliance' between the Hutt Lords.

Its main power comes from its wealth, and furthermore from its connections. It knows every bounty hunter, mercenary and smuggler in the world, so its pretty silly to attack them.

 

[Galavant]

Needs more Swoop Racing or Pod, or Space racing. Maybe Star Wars style Chariot-Gladiator fighting tournament doohickeys :CHappy

 

[Toska]

Perhaps I worded it poorly. The Cartel lacks direction. We take it wherever we want, and that's an enjoyable level of freedom, but how does that distinguish it from a criminally-minded independent faction? That's the basis for my previous definition: A glorified Retrade. Bigger, badder, and with vastly more potential, but unless we have something to work towards -- a goal -- where will we end up? The Jedi had the same problem before the timeskip, when they underwent changes in leadership every other week, and I don't want that to happen here.

 

[Insoulent]

Well, there is no direction we should go. Unlike the Jedi (who's goal it is to bring peace) or the Sith (destruction of the Lightside and domination) the Hutt's goal is to bring in revenue. That within itself is the ultimate goal, to get rich. A crime syndicate is a crime syndicate. There's nothing that is radically different between lowly gangs and an organized mob family, other than the level of respect and "legitimacy", other than that, they still do whatever they have to to get credits. There's not really anything that can be suggested that would change the direction of the Hutts, as we'd probably still be lying, cheating, and scurrying our way up into getting credits. The goal is credits, so I would assume allowing individual characters to start up their own small "Crews" or families that focus on a planet or specific "trade" to bring revenue to themselves and the Cartel, but all that would do would cause more confusion and too much administration on the OOC side of things. I wouldn't want to put more work in for our faction staff, if it's not really needed. Only other thing is just to create some more Arcs like the Zonju V takeover, or the current battle for Burnout which would bring in revenue/notoriety for the faction. There's few things a bunch of mercs and criminals can do to the galaxy besides corrupt it. We can't fight the Sith, we're not military and we have no reason to. We can't help the Rebellion, as the Empire would probably attack us for aiding them. Best this faction can do is be fun criminal characters.

ps: There's nothing a criminal organization can really do to change the face of the Galaxy if there's no need for it. You can take over companies or what have you, hell even influence Governments, but it won't really change anything but make it easier to gain credits. If we took over companies, we made tech, sold it, whatever, we'd need the co-operation of other factions as well, but they have their own ways of acquiring technology and their own designs, so it'd make us kind of float in limbo if we focus on that, too.

 

[Gaja]

This is an interesting thread, I dare even say excellent. I think this discussion is awesome for a number of reasons so I encourage everyone to share their thoughts here as their input is much appreciated. Thank you Toska for starting it.

Now then one of the things I talked about with people over the course of the last couple of months, even since I was offered the FL gig, was what the Cartel would be about. You know, when you have a brand new faction that carries the name Hutt Cartel there's many associations that come to mind. We all know this.

"The Hutt Cartel - An economic super power ruling Hutt space. It represents, maybe for the first time in a thousand years, a truly unified faction, or coming together, of some of the most powerful Hutt Lords under the banner of Vero the Hutt."

So I'd say Norb and Insoulent hit the nail on the head in a lot of ways. The Cartel is a criminal entity, it's goal is not one of political dominance, however that doesn't make them friends with the Empire either. Actually that puts them on decent terms with the Rebels if you stop and think about it. Think of this way.

"Hey whoa! We're at the moment the #2 faction in the galaxy, but we got the Sith over there scoping us out. So how about since we can't fight them directly we get someone else to do it for us. And since we don't like the Jedi too much either we could help out these Rebel guerrilla folks."

So there's that, but I digress somewhat. What I meant to say was, while the identity, if you will, of the Hutt Cartel may be difficult to define it's up to everyone to help shape it for themselves. To some it may be a paradise of crime and villainy, to others a safe haven where their characters rediscover themselves and find a true home and family, while to some it may just be an ally against the biggest monster in the galaxy.

And while the direction this faction is going to take may not be clear to everyone do not forget this. We are not your traditional good guys. We are the lawless of the galaxy. We are the Hutt Cartel.

 

[Toska]

Well, there is no direction we should go. Unlike the Jedi (who's goal it is to bring peace) or the Sith (destruction of the Lightside and domination) the Hutt's goal is to bring in revenue. That within itself is the ultimate goal, to get rich. A crime syndicate is a crime syndicate. There's nothing that is radically different between lowly gangs and an organized mob family, other than the level of respect and "legitimacy", other than that, they still do whatever they have to to get credits. There's not really anything that can be suggested that would change the direction of the Hutts, as we'd probably still be lying, cheating, and scurrying our way up into getting credits. The goal is credits, so I would assume allowing individual characters to start up their own small "Crews" or families that focus on a planet or specific "trade" to bring revenue to themselves and the Cartel, but all that would do would cause more confusion and too much administration on the OOC side of things. I wouldn't want to put more work in for our faction staff, if it's not really needed.

The organization itself needs goals and milestones. If you want to play this like the mafia, however, the Cartel would need to set limitations on what our characters can and cannot do, and if someone breaks those limitations, they are punished. Those restrictions are what sets a "legitimate" family apart from the gangs roaming the streets of low-income neighborhoods. The larger the scale an organization operates, the more restrictions needed to keep the members in line. The Cartel is huge. It isn't a simple family of gangsters operating in the shadows of the state. They are the state, an independent nation of mobsters looking to try their hand on the galactic stage. But this is the exact mindset I was afraid of; people see the Cartel as nothing more than your average criminally-minded independent faction. They ignore its scope and play it like the Exchange.

The Cartel needs a direction. It can't function without having a united leadership. Communication and unity are key -- both in-character and out -- for the faction's growth. If every underlord and captain goes off in their own direction, starting a crew with their own rules and ideology, what does that do to the faction as a whole? It becomes a bunch of random independent factions who exist in the same space. In order to turn the greatest profit, everyone needs to be on the same page; everyone has a job and needs to know how to fulfill it.

Only other thing is just to create some more Arcs like the Zonju V takeover, or the current battle for Burnout which would bring in revenue/notoriety for the faction. There's few things a bunch of mercs and criminals can do to the galaxy besides corrupt it. We can't fight the Sith, we're not military and we have no reason to. We can't help the Rebellion, as the Empire would probably attack us for aiding them. Best this faction can do is be fun criminal characters.

Those are nice distractions, but they alienate us from the main story. The point I continuously raise is: What makes us a main faction? If we're just a bunch of independently minded people working for our own gains and nothing more, why even bother putting us on the board as a main faction? If we're not going to contribute to the main story, there's no reason for our existence. I'd compare it to the Mandalorians from the start of the timeline. They existed on their own, lacking any clear concept of identity. The players envisioned the faction itself differently, and discrepancies existed among the leadership as well. They alienated themselves from the story, contributing only to personal arcs and what happened to them? Radical changes in leadership and conceptualization, civil war, and a fettering out of activity resulting in them losing their status as a main faction. I don't know about you, but I really don't want that to happen to the Cartel.

ps: There's nothing a criminal organization can really do to change the face of the Galaxy if there's no need for it. You can take over companies or what have you, hell even influence Governments, but it won't really change anything but make it easier to gain credits. If we took over companies, we made tech, sold it, whatever, we'd need the co-operation of other factions as well, but they have their own ways of acquiring technology and their own designs, so it'd make us kind of float in limbo if we focus on that, too.

I disagree.

We can assimilate independent factions to increase our power, militarily and economically. Through subterfuge and cooperation with the other factions, we can cripple the current means of production and replace them with our own. We don't need to fight the Sith directly, but nor do we need to cower in fear of them. One of our goals should be to turn ourselves into something the Sith fear to attack. Bacta is a minor hindrance. They can seize Thyffera and begin production of it themselves. We want the Empire in debt, with us as their creditors. They have to appease us, or we stop supporting their infrastructure.

That was the premise of the Hutt Cartel to begin with! But we haven't even begun taking steps towards that.

As for supporting the rebellion... why can't we? I'm not sure why everyone is so paranoid about hurting relations with the other factions. If we hide rebels in Hutt space... so what? The Empire can't prove we harbored them. We did not arm them or provide charity to them. Even if we did arm them, how would the Empire find out? The Ubiqtorate isn't all-knowing. Unless the leadership starts writing checks out with their names signed to Terrsyn Pearot, what trail is there for the Ubiqtorate to follow?

They can't say that the Ubiqtorate automatically knows what we're planning. They need to role-play it out. Spies need to infiltrate our meetings, and then report back -- all of which gives us a chance to catch them in the act.

 

[Dmitri]

Toska, if you have such issues with certain factions, why do you not just join in order to help them?

Also, the Cartel is, to my understanding, a conglomerate more than a single entity. A consortium of kidijics. This actually allows it to have different identities and directions in my opinion because it allows for more options to choose from.

 

[Toska]

Toska, if you have such issues with certain factions, why do you not just join in order to help them?

I'm not sure what you're talking about? I am a member of the Cartel.

 

[Dmitri]

I'm not sure what you're talking about? I am a member of the Cartel.

That's my error, then. I only saw Constantine in your sig so I made assumption you only had that Jedi.

 

[Gaja]

@Toska.

Even though no one really replied to my post I just wanted to point out some nice thinking that matches on a lot of stuff that was said over skype. The Cartel isn't fearful of the Empire, aware yes, afraid no. Also the Bacta crisis is a unique thing because only top ranking members actually know certain things regarding that, like production location, transports, hyperspace routes... hence any OOC metagaming will be called out. As for Tyferra there's actually something I should take up with Matt and talk about as Tyferra is really the biggest tactical weakness we have at the moment, but not to worry it's getting worked on. ;D

As for us helping the Rebels in particular, which was why I chose to respond to your post in the first place that's exactly what I was thinking as well. Deciding to turn a blind eye here and there may end up being a good thing for us without putting the Cartel in danger. Very good story opportunities there, and yes the Sith are not all seeing so I don't see how anyone would suspect the galaxies criminals helping out the galaxies good guys...

 

[Nor'baal]

The Cartel is in my eyes underplaying its Bacta card.

Bacta is like oil or gold in this timeline.

Imagine what would happen if I owned all the gold? I would be untouchable. Anyone who pisses me off, I destroy the gold. In hours the global economy goes to shit. Riots everywhere.

The Hutts destroy the Bacta, or one factions reserve.....there is nothing anyone can do to stop the trillions of people tearing into the streets and rioting.

The Bacta card, combined with the Hutt links to bounty hunters and mercinarys should not be underestimated.

 

[Gaja]

Bacta is like oil or gold in this timeline.

It's actually even more important than gold because it's really a miracle substance if you stop and think about it. Controlling it allows us to stop a military super power like the Empire from expanding [although in all fairness it's also that the Empire needs to stabilize and recover internally] or even attacking us at all [at least openly].

However that's exactly why Tyferra is so important, because it's the source of said miracle substance. Maybe not the storage world but certainly the source. Of course the Hutts don't just leave it out there on a silver plate for anyone to walk in and take it and have strategies in place to protect their investments.

But if we're discussing it from a strategical standpoint it's something we have to look out for and protect.

 

[Insoulent]

Well, the Rebellion isn't really formalized, nor is it in any shape to really do any damage to the Empire or even to really show up on the Hutt's radar right now, nor have they even approached us, why would they so early, or at all for that matter? Plus, the GA remnants/Rebels being helped by criminals isn't such a good look, either. The Empire really hasn't (to my knowledge, but then again they're a pretty sneaky lot) done anything in character to really give us any threat to even want to combat us and vice-verse. The Cartel is not a Galactic State, it literally is ruled by vigilante justice. We don't police anyone but other's who've done the Cartel wrong. We don't have any form of representation, except money.

I understand what you're saying, and it's important to plan ahead and have goals, but that's something the FLs would have to flesh out ultimately, from my knowledge at least. You're relying on out of character co-operation between factions, but only speaking to one. I agree though, the Cartel's economic status would help, but honestly, there's nothing we can do right now that would change the state of the Roleplay, or even the Cartel for that matter. Like I said, we can soak up companies, and such, but that won't stop the other factions from creating their own technology in character, and I doubt we'd be really hassled to produce and market new technology with all those companies we acquire (OOC'ly). I have confidence GAJA knows a bit about what he's doing and what he's going to possibly plan to do from the looks of his post, my "suggestions" would be around the ballpark of what he already proposed (Rebels and Empire), but we can't really formulate anything until the Rebel faction really takes off, and they haven't even had a major battle against the Empire yet, so why would we even try to help them yet in character. It'd take a lot of risk to help a bunch of small-time rebels, with very little payout. Bacta is a major important resource by the way, bigger than you make it seem. It's a miracle substance, an elixir if you will, that is the go-to thing for everyone in the galaxy. It cures major wounds, and is highly valuable to any military, especially an Empire (Empires grow from expanding through physical warfare or through mental influence). But alas, the Empire has made no moves (again, to my knowledge) against the Cartel, even if they did, we'd be the only ones who could heal ourselves and go back for more, the same can't be said for the Empire.

This is all OOC speculation of what we hope to happen, for all we know, maybe the rebels will try to attack Thyferra for their own Bacta supply, or maybe one of the Captains decides to double-cross the Cartel before then, or something else could happen entirely that changes the scope of the roleplay. I think once the Roleplay really starts moving, and we can create more opportunities, then we can really do something. But we can't really do much in the current state of things, but we can prepare and bulk up in character, right now. Which to the roleplay as a whole is more important, the right now. Planning ahead is good, but certain things can change, leadership, membership, storylines, or any other factor I might miss. The only certainty is your character, and your plans for that character, and through that, maybe you can influence the rest of your faction, or even the Roleplay as a whole.

I simply look at the Cartel as opportunity. Which is how I'm using it. It's the easiest form of gaining riches, and I plan to do a lot with those riches. One of which is helping a certain indie faction get bigger and stronger, and eventually combat a big-bad group a bit north of our Galactic position. The next is gaining control of a company, produce some stuff, move up the ladder of the Cartel. Another, is gaining a lot of friends and contacts with some big-time criminals, since they most likely got a lot of money too and be a good help. Anything further than that, well, I'll just roll with the punches and see what happens.

 

[Galavant]

Well, the Rebellion isn't really formalized, nor is it in any shape to really do any damage to the Empire or even to really show up on the Hutt's radar right now, nor have they even approached us, why would they so early, or at all for that matter? Plus, the GA remnants/Rebels being helped by criminals isn't such a good look, either.

Just to note, the Rebs probably don't really want the exact same image as the GA (More gritty original trilogy Rebel style as compared to the cleaner Old Republic style of the GA I'd imagine), and they're already being helped by criminals in the form of the various pirates and smugglers of the Civilian Resistance. Could be some interesting overlap and RPs in regards to that but considering They've barely got a system defense fleet that's in need of some serious repairs, they're probably not big enough to really show up on the Cartel's radar in any meaningful way at this stage like you said.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

I also agree, as Gaja and the other Hutt leaders know, that it does make sense for the Hutts to aid the Rebellion. Though the Rebellion isn’t fully up to snuff yet yet, there are still ways that they can prove their value to the Cartel. It's just a matter of getting those stories off the ground (which I know Cass and Gaja are working on). With the Cartel’s help, they could even start to become a stronger force to deal with the Empire. Imagine the resources that the powerful Hutt Lords, with their galaxy-spanning influence, could bring to the Rebel cause. As was said above, the Rebels are grittier than the Alliance, so allying themselves with the rulers of the underworld isn’t that far-fetched. When you're desperate, the ends justify the means.

As for why the Hutts would want to ally with the Rebels, it’s a simple matter of self-preservation and what kind of galactic government is best for the Cartel. The Hutt Lords would know that the Bacta Crisis can’t be exploited forever, so the bacta threat is only a short-term solution to keep the Empire at bay. Even if the Empire doesn’t go after the Hutts right away, since their focus would be the easier-to-conquer south, it would be foolish for the Hutts to believe that the Empire would leave them alone forever. Eventually, the Sith will come knocking.

And when I said what kind of government works best for the Cartel, they have to consider what an over-reaching and malevolent Empire would do vs. what a benevolent Alliance or Republic-type faction would do. The underworld exists in the ungoverned shadows; the more controlling the government, the less shadows there are. The Empire is interested in stability and control, so they would go after the criminal underworld. That’s unlike an Alliance-type government, which doesn’t go after that level of control. That allows an underworld to exist. So even if an Alliance-type government does try to combat crime, as all good democracies do, it won’t be at the level the Empire would.

A new Republic or a new Alliance is ultimately better for the Cartel and better for their business, which is why the Hutts trying to help the Rebels succeed makes a lot of sense. The Hutts are not interested in governing the galaxy, so they have to decide what kind of galactic government they want at their borders. Even if they don't think of it like that, it's still true that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. The Sith will never let the Cartel survive in the long run.

So once the Cartel picks a side, the question becomes, what do they do on that side?

 

[Toska]

I understand what you're saying, and it's important to plan ahead and have goals, but that's something the FLs would have to flesh out ultimately, from my knowledge at least. You're relying on out of character co-operation between factions, but only speaking to one.

To the first part, the members' opinions are of equal importance as the leadership's in these matters. Neither of us can do it alone, which is why I made this thread.

As for the bolded section... I'm trying my best here. :)

This isn't something that can be changed in a day. Bac pointed that out earlier in the role-playing help section. I can't go to the Empire's leadership and give them all of these proposals on my own initiative without knowing that the Cartel as a whole supports them. Where would that put me if I did? I'd be promising results and occurrences without the means to provide them, and I'd be asking people to take my word on blind faith alone. I don't want to do that.

I agree though, the Cartel's economic status would help, but honestly, there's nothing we can do right now that would change the state of the Roleplay, or even the Cartel for that matter. Like I said, we can soak up companies, and such, but that won't stop the other factions from creating their own technology in character, and I doubt we'd be really hassled to produce and market new technology with all those companies we acquire (OOC'ly). I have confidence GAJA knows a bit about what he's doing and what he's going to possibly plan to do from the looks of his post, my "suggestions" would be around the ballpark of what he already proposed (Rebels and Empire), but we can't really formulate anything until the Rebel faction really takes off, and they haven't even had a major battle against the Empire yet, so why would we even try to help them yet in character. It'd take a lot of risk to help a bunch of small-time rebels, with very little payout. Bacta is a major important resource by the way, bigger than you make it seem. It's a miracle substance, an elixir if you will, that is the go-to thing for everyone in the galaxy. It cures major wounds, and is highly valuable to any military, especially an Empire (Empires grow from expanding through physical warfare or through mental influence). But alas, the Empire has made no moves (again, to my knowledge) against the Cartel, even if they did, we'd be the only ones who could heal ourselves and go back for more, the same can't be said for the Empire.

Well, this is going to be difficult to address all at once. Why do you think that we can't do anything right now to push the Cartel in a certain direction? What is stopping us from becoming major players in the story?

Communication. That's what we're lacking. You have ideas, I have ideas, Gaja has ideas... we all want to see different things in this faction, but they aren't voiced. No one is stepping up and saying, "Hey, let's assimilate the Initiative!" Some of us sit back and think it's a good idea, but no one takes that first step. This is a site-wide issue, one that has been slowly remedying itself since the fourth timeline thanks to efforts by various members and staff. But in this specific instance, we are the only ones preventing the Cartel from changing anything.

You mentioned the rebels midway through that paragraph, so we'll address that next. Gaja and I seem to be on the same page about it: We don't want to help them, but rather avoid hindering them. Allow them to do as they please and become a true threat to the Empire, in turn becoming insurance for the Cartel's survival.

Now, bacta... I'm not trying to disregard its importance in galactic affairs. It has the capacity to heal most wounds cure common ailments with almost no consequence. But in no way is it necessary for the galaxy's survival. Panic spreads initially, causing civil unrest and potential riots, possibly forcing the Empire's hand in governing the galaxy. It would change the galaxy on a fundamental level, but only temporarily. Assuming the Cartel destroys all existing bacta stores, eliminates the Vraxis race, and bombards Thyferra to destroy all signs of life to prevent the future production of bacta, its properties can be mimicked, kolto functions as a temporary substitute, and the pharmaceutical industry is forced to regress to deal with the situation. This also assumes that it becomes public knowledge that bacta is gone.

Knowing the Empire, they could spin the news to make it sound like the Cartel destroyed the existing bacta stores to punish Imperial citizens. What would that do to the galaxy? I keep seeing people praise bacta as if its lack will destroy the galaxy, but that's the extent of their arguments. What will happen, exactly? How long will it last? There are too many variables to flippantly through absolutes around.

This is all OOC speculation of what we hope to happen, for all we know, maybe the rebels will try to attack Thyferra for their own Bacta supply, or maybe one of the Captains decides to double-cross the Cartel before then, or something else could happen entirely that changes the scope of the roleplay. I think once the Roleplay really starts moving, and we can create more opportunities, then we can really do something. But we can't really do much in the current state of things, but we can prepare and bulk up in character, right now. Which to the roleplay as a whole is more important, the right now. Planning ahead is good, but certain things can change, leadership, membership, storylines, or any other factor I might miss. The only certainty is your character, and your plans for that character, and through that, maybe you can influence the rest of your faction, or even the Roleplay as a whole.

This is indeed just speculation. However, the point is to turn this speculation into role-playing opportunity. "Once the Roleplay really starts moving," you say, but when will that happen? Who is going to get it moving? Are you just sitting around waiting for someone else to do it? I'm not looking for certainty. I'm looking for direction, somewhere we can go right now. Something we can work towards to get the role-play moving. To shape the story and our characters alike.