Swift Pain - OOC

[Sreeya]

@Kori Buor I'm also noticing you're doing some convenient backpedaling here. Your *entire* last post had a ton of dialogue on how he's yelling at Eivor. Suddenly now that Eivor did a Flash he's facing away from it? Nope, he's just as blinded as anyone else there and in no position to know where sudden blaster bolts are coming from. I even included that in my post: The man – having just been thrown and focused on yelling back - wouldn’t have a way to see the abrupt attack coming.

I'm not going to buy that he's looking at Nayeli while yelling at Eivor about her betrayal...

 

[Aurius]

@Kori Buor

Your post has a few things I wanted to point out. My attempt to hold Jace in place was before there was ever an attempt to stab at him. The stab comes at the exact moment as the blaster shots would have hit. So you'd have to break that hold before you could do anything else, which won't give you time to turn around before the flash considering all the timing we see. Your post manages to completely dodge 3 different people attacking, multiple angles, and multiple types of attacks all at once. While Jace is level 3 that is quite the feat.

Tri-blasters fire three shots at once that don't hit the same point. Your lightsaber wouldn't be able to just casually slap it out of the way nor would they be easily dodged with a slight movement. Especially considering you're also being stabbed and held and blinded.

Wouldn't GABA's flash have interrupted your concentration too, not just Kravos'? It wasn't really aimed at the crowd or anywhere in particular, but you're right in front of her, in closer proximity than either of them.

(I'm just asking, I don't think Kori is online rn.)

 

[Cazar]

Wouldn't GABA's flash have interrupted your concentration too, not just Kravos'? It wasn't really aimed at the crowd or anywhere in particular, but you're right in front of her, in closer proximity than either of them.

(I'm just asking, I don't think Kori is online rn.)

I'll address that in my post, but it doesn't change what we said above.

 

[Aurius]

I'll address that in my post, but it doesn't change what we said above.

But, if I'm wrong here, your concentration is broken. You can't hold him, in the same way Ven can't summon that light because he has to deal with incoming fire, otherwise you'd all be interrupted right now. It's all happening at once, you can't just say all of the attacks are only simultaneous for Jace, since Evee used Force Flash prior to your post. Thus, your concentration is broken, your grip is null, he can fall to the ground or preform whatever dodge is necessary.

Unless, again, I'm completely wrong. I understand the magic teleportation spin thing, I get that, I'm just confused as to how Nayeli can maintain her hold right now, at this point in time, while stabbing at an opponent on the defensive.

 

[Cazar]

But, if I'm wrong here, your concentration is broken. You can't hold him, in the same way Ven can't summon that light because he has to deal with incoming fire, otherwise you'd all be interrupted right now. It's all happening at once, you can't just say all of the attacks are only simultaneous for Jace, since Evee used Force Flash prior to your post. Thus, your concentration is broken, your grip is null, he can fall to the ground or preform whatever dodge is necessary.

Unless, again, I'm completely wrong. I understand the magic teleportation spin thing, I get that, I'm just confused as to how Nayeli can maintain her hold right now, at this point in time, while stabbing at an opponent on the defensive.

Timing wise my hold is initiated right before the flash would even take place anyways, so he'd still have to consider it. Even if not, that's not all of our concerns so I'd like for Kori to see and maybe make edits before we get too tangled in what is going on.

 

[Dmitri]

Extension granted.

 

[Kori Buor]

Alright, now that I've had more than 3 hours of sleep after 34 hours of work, I can properly address the concerns brought up with my post, as I know it was going to draw some heat. So, first, I think we need to examine the timing of the posts for this last round.

First, Kal recognizes Evee and begins to use the Force to choke her, this is while she is telling Nayeli to leave, but before she can tell Jace to "Say it again." This interrupts her action and she does not say that line, taunting Jace, and thus he does not have the whole line about him insulting her back. He can't respond to something she never said. It's not backtracking, it's a full interrupt/negation. If you wanted him to be busy replying, you should have waited until Jace had started monologuing, but your posts clearly indicate that Kal's Force choke occured before that, interrupting the whole chain of events and changing the way things took place. Though, I will edit in that Kal's actions prevented Jace's ability to dwell/think on what Evee had said.

In my previous post, I had stated that as Jace stood that he was keeping an eye on Nayeli in case she was going to try something, this happens before Phoenix's interrupt. Jace, ready for an attack, feels the dark side attack almost at the same time Evee does, expecting it to be coming from Nayeli and begins to react based on his own battle-hardened instincts. Nayeli, who seems to only be vaguely aware of "emergency help nearby" according to Cazar's previous post, doesn't seem to have been anticipating Kal's attack. We can ignore this as being a Sith Master level character, she had enhanced reactions, but seeing as Jace is Councilor level power, his reactions would easily be on par with hers, and he was anticipating something possibly happening.

As Evee quickly realizes the attack against her she immediately responds with Force Flash to blind almost everyone in the vicinity looking in her general direction with a localized bright AF sunburst. This occurs as Jace turns to engage Nayeli, using his own strength in the Force to throw her from her feet as she tries to reach out and hold him (not even considering Gaba's interrupt of the Force Flash and how that would affect her concentration or ability to hold him with the Force when she's the closest person to it), trying to focus on holding a character who is much stronger than her in the Force. In Episode III, we see Yoda (whom I would consider to be a threshold level 3-4 character when compared to Snoke/Luke) throw two Red Guard hard enough to knock them out in a split second, so I don't think Jace, who was expecting something to happen, would be unable to reactively throw her a few feet behind him.

Next, in Sreeya's post, she mentions initiating her attack , to occur a moment after Kal begins his (which she also did not state to be anticipating), and another moment to draw her pistol, aim, and fire. This would be occurring while Evee is using Force Flash to blind people, and in order to see Jace one would have to be able to see the Flash as well. To note, nothing mentions he is looking directly at Evee, especially as this was before she taunted him, and after I specifically stated to be keeping an eye Nayeli. Though, given how bright a Level 4 Force Flash would be, I'm willing to have Jace be more affected by it, but again, he was not looking in the direction of Evee when it happened.

Regarding the blaster, I think perhaps you all have not read the description of the blaster pistol. Let me link it here. Now, let me draw some specific parts regarding the approved description of the blaster bolts.

The weapon uses three barrels which fire a single cluster of light blaster bolts which are so closely packed together they function as one, single heavy blaster bolt. Because of this, the weapon's clustered burst has a great deal of kinetic stopping power, enough to knock an unprepared being off their feet. Unfortunately, this also means that the weapon has more kick than an angry fathier practicing Echani martial arts. Combined with a naturally slow rate of fire and the constant risk of the three tightly packed barrels overheating, and the weapon is not good for fast-paced, rapid-fire shootouts.

In terms of lightsaber deflection, the bolts are packed so close together that they can all be hit with one swing. They tend to scatter off in different directions, however, essentially turning the deflection into an unpredictable volley of three light blaster bolts.

So, not only do the blaster bolts travel close enough together to be dodged, they travel close enough to be blocked by a single lightsaber swing. I think that should sufficiently refute the point of not being able to dodge them by ducking and spinning out of the way and blocking at the same time, assuming they'd still be on the exact same course to hit him given Evee's Force Flash. Given the powerful nature of he weapon, an immediate "double-tap" follow up shot would be impossible, giving Jace plenty of time to block the second shot.

@Cazar I'm not sure where you're getting that I am responding to the slash first, perhaps me saying Jace is instinctively assuming Nayeli was going to attack? That was his own startle-flinch reaction as soon as Evee was getting Force attacked. He's going to assume the Sith next to him is going to attack him and respond in kind. Additionally, though I'll need to double check with a Tech mod (@Loco) to ensure that what I heard was accurate, but I was told that Force Flash also briefly shorts out a vibroblade requiring it to "reset" in a sense.

@Sreeya @GABA

 

[Cazar]

This is so much to respond to and.. I'll try not to make my reply as long.

Snoke and Yoda are clearly level 4s, not level 3. You don't get to compare yourself to a level 4 attacking NonFS NPCs in a cPvP. ;)

You magically dodge so many attacks at you in one post, and honestly you claim to dodge an attack before it even happens. My vibroblade is coming later and it isn't up to you to say GABA's post stops me from doing something. Maybe my own post has a defense against it. You don't hit me with what someone else did as part of your defense.

You were locked in talking to Eivor. She spoke, you spoke to her, we posted as attacking you as you spoke to her. Those were locked in and should have been disputed at the time, not in your post later. You monologued during pvp which does not ever end well from looking over old pvp. You got shot, stabbed, held, and blinded. You don't magically get to turn around out of some instinct and undo your old post to avoid all attacks. You were betrayed by an ally in pvp and targeted by multiple people. I'm not saying you have to instantly die but that's not just something you twirl and go "I avoid all".

The tri-blaster shots, sure that makes sense. But it's just one of many issues we had so the rest still stands as far as I am concerned.

The blinding light may also cause a slight disruption in electrical devices near the individual producing the energy, causing static for a few seconds if not EMP protected. However, this disruption is only temporary and it is known for comms and holo-cams to return to working order after the instance has past. This may allow the user to slip by security in either a passive or aggressive manner or be able to get away from their opponents when they are in a tight situation.

By the time the flash ends, even comms and holo-cams return to working. It isn't going to make my vibroblade any less deadly to you a sharp sword going into your back, even if for some reason it stopped my weapon from working right. It's still a sharp sword.

I could write more but I think that's enough for now...

 

[Cazar]

Slight addendum to my post.

The main concern I am highlighting is the dodge that comes before any attacks and out of order sequences. Most of the rest is just replying to other things not as important.

 

[Kori Buor]

Respectfully, I'm going to have to disagree with you.

The point I was drawing about comparing to Yoda, is that a Level 4 can easily, casually, in fact, knock unconscious two highly trained Non-Force Users, with a lazy half-wave of his hand in a split second. Regardless if you view it as cPvP against NPCs, knocking 2 persons out with a casual flick of the wrist in almost no time at all is not some casual feat of the Force. Ergo, moving a Level 2 Sith a few feet with a sudden telekinetic burst that they weren't expecting or ready for, while they were focused on using the Force to use as an aggressive telekinetic hold, would be doable.

I'm not sure you are aware, but if you interrupt an action so that the thing other characters are responding to doesn't occur, they can't respond to it, thus that interrupts their action as well. That's simple logic. How can you block a follow-up attack if the action sequence was interrupted before the follow up? You don't. It got interrupted, so since the literal thing you were responding to no longer happens, you can't progress down that timeline. From your perspective you can only write what you expect the character to do based on what was going to happen before the interrupt, that doesn't mean that is what the character is going to do.

I think you also might be confused about what the Force does for Jedi regarding their reflexes. Every canon source states that when a Jedi relies on the Force to guide their actions, they act on their own instincts. What's an example of an instinctive action? A startle flinch. That jerky movement you make when your mind perceives a threat. Like a spider crawling towards your face on your pillow. This is how Jedi can react faster than mind-boggingly possible. They "act on instinct." That is how the Force guides a Jedi's actions. Jace, who was expecting and ready for something to happen, and is a Level 3 Jedi and would still have considerable strength and skill, would have reverted to his lowest level of training, AKA acted on instinct. As an experienced Jedi Guardian he would have immediately attacked the nearest threat, even if it wasn't the source of the attack. And yes, that would have been Nayeli. The sketchy Sith would always take priority over the shady woman Jace had grown quite close to over the past several weeks.

But since the post has already been reported, I'll leave it to the reviewing admin to make the call, and respect whatever decision they come to.

 

[Clayton]

Alright, this thread has reminded me why I don't like giant PvPs.

It took some doing, but here's the order of events:

Eivor throws Jace at Nayeli. Kravos takes advantage of this action to immediately start choking her. Jace tries to stand up after being thrown, so he can yell at Evivor (who is currently choking), but Zanna shoots at Jace twice as he is starting to get to his feet, (so he is mostly prone) and well before he starts preparing the Force. Nayeli*, concurrent with Zanna's first shot, goes to use the Force to grip Jace to stop him from moving. Then, after that, she extends her sword and tries to stab Jace. Meanwhile, Camila does some cryokinesis to obscure Venatus' visor, and shoots at his back four times before he can summon the light of Azhor Azhai, which would have happened after the blaster shot (this is quite clearly an interrupt and would need action on Venatus' part to react to before he could attempt the light thing again). Finally, after Zanna fires at least once, Eivor summons enough concentration to flash everyone, and after that she unleashes a force wave at Zanna and Kravos.


*Cazar's written, background interpretation of the timing and interpretation of other's timing is off (Jace never gets to stand up before Zanna fires). The anchor text that we need to pay attention to is that Nayeli's attack comes concurrent with Zanna's. We can then ignore his misinterpretation of events in the non-action stuff he wrote.


Onto the ruling.

This means Jace's post is problematic at best. First, Nayeli gathered the Force to her in a previous round, which Jace entirely ignored. Using that to say he's going to react to her on instinct now won't work. If that was the case, he would have done that in the previous round. Second, he isn't even standing yet so his ducking and stuff won't work unless he can become one with the floor. He has a blaster shot coming at him at the same time he'd have to be countering Nayeli's gripping him in the force to stop his movements, and a second shot maybe two seconds after that, which would in all likelyhood happen at the same time Nayeli is trying to stab him.

But frankly, all of that is meaningless as Jace starts his post as if he's already stood up and been able to gather the force. His timing is just way off. As such, (@Kori Buor) his defense does not stand, and is mortally wounded. Jace has taken a heavy blaster shot to the unarmored torso, is gripped with the Force, and has a second shot incoming along with a stab from a sword.

There is a hanging interrupt in this fight that has somehow extended beyond this current round, which I find rather problematic as we can easily end up having two separate parties fighting two fights in the past and present in the same stupid round. So I'm giving you guys a freebie ruling number 1.5, just so all of you are crystal clear on the timing hereon out. The timing of the thread should resume starting from GABA's post. Kravos is realistically the only one that would be able to respond quickly enough to Eivor's actions to truly deal with it, but the timing overall is so shaky in the thread right now he's just going to have to be defensive, and everyone will just have to start out on the same page.

Zanna (@Sreeya) in particular will have to react to a double-whammy of blinding light and a wreck-your-shit wave from Eivor since Zanna is focusing on controlling a hand-cannon's formidable recoil to land multiple shots.

Jace will post NEXT (@Kori Buor) so he can get his death stuff out of the way, Venatus will post SECOND (@Aurius Pheonix) so he can react to the blaster shots at him and catch up in time with everyone else, but he isn't going to be able to intervene on Jace's behalf. The regular posting order will resume after he posts.

End ruling. Non-negotiable, you all know the drill.

@Sreeya @Kori Buor @Aurius Pheonix @Cazar @Phoenix @GABA

 

[Aurius]

@Clayton ...did you just compare Venatus to the Lord of Light??

Alright. I'm going to ask something here, for the benefit of everyone involved in this PvP. As I understand, Manaan operates in a very similar fashion to how it does in KOTOR, and as such the law enforcements would probably be more than active in a battle that has since commenced.

However, I am concerned that any individual player or user controlling such law enforcements, on either side, could result in an unintentional bias. I have mentioned the law enforcement in my posts, but I don't want to be the one controlling those NPCs, that would most certainly be a balance shift that would most likely be against PvP rules. Would it be possible to request a separate user - staff or otherwise - to use the storyteller account and DM said law enforcement.

EDITED. You know how to do your job, and I know y'all are fair. I'm way to used to writing reports.

 

[Clayton]

NPC law enforcement would never be controlled by participants in the PvP.

 

[Phoenix]

Well since Kori missed his edit window, it's now your turn per Clayton's ruling @Aurius Pheonix

 

[Aurius]

@Phoenix I will see about getting that post up when I get home so that we can get this thread wrapped up, either way.

EDIT: Clarifying, how long do I have to post, and when did he time out? The 48 hour window is all funky now.

 

[Phoenix]

@Phoenix I will see about getting that post up when I get home so that we can get this thread wrapped up, either way.

EDIT: Clarifying, how long do I have to post, and when did he time out? The 48 hour window is all funky now.

You have 48 hours from 24 hours after Clayton's ruling (9:12 PM last night my time, but I don't know what the time is for you)

 

[Logan]

@Aurius Phoenix

So I don't usually call foul on pvp posts but there are a few parts of your most recent post that I find a touch meta-gamey

The woman's aura had never been left unchecked, she made no effort to conceal it, her appearance on the rooftop was no surprise to him.

So this kind of came up earlier in the thread but that's not really how sensing a person's aura works. Cami arriving wouldn't be preceded by her aura acting like some sort of spotlight on her. I don't think you'd instantly be able to know where she is or what her actual intent was before she did anything.

Moving onto the more troublesome part though - the dodging of all the blaster shots. Cami shot from behind Venatus, so I find it hard to believe he'd have time to draw the force into himself and simply dodge them all - especially considering as per my above point that he wouldn't instantly know they were being shot towards him.

I'm not saying its impossible, but only the current defense just doesn't work in my opinion.

 

[Aurius]

@Aurius Phoenix

So I don't usually call foul on pvp posts but there are a few parts of your most recent post that I find a touch meta-gamey



So this kind of came up earlier in the thread but that's not really how sensing a person's aura works. Cami arriving wouldn't be preceded by her aura acting like some sort of spotlight on her. I don't think you'd instantly be able to know where she is or what her actual intent was before she did anything.

Moving onto the more troublesome part though - the dodging of all the blaster shots. Cami shot from behind Venatus, so I find it hard to believe he'd have time to draw the force into himself and simply dodge them all - especially considering as per my above point that he wouldn't instantly know they were being shot towards him.

I'm not saying its impossible, but only the current defense just doesn't work in my opinion.

He had to stop the concentration completely, the instant he heard the vlaster shots. I should've been more clear, he didn't have the time to draw enough energy for the light, but vented what energy he'd started amassing to his eyes on the move. And he is weaving, dodging, pushing through or past people - his allies are the priority, nothing else matters. If you want me to improve on how I'm dodging, or take a pot shot somewhere non lethal, I can do that; depending on what location. Since its what I assume to be a straight line shot for his head, he'd only have to move minimally to avoid, unless Cami is following his movements

I can edit out knowing where she is, the force sense stuff Im obviously doing wrong. However, the sound would be a dead giveaway - Venatus is pretty experienced when it comes to being shot at - like I am - he can locate the sound of incoming attacks, and since blaster bolts aren't like bullets (ie: you hear them and hope to the gods your Kevlar holds up) he should be able to avoid them.

EDIT: you're also shooting into an established crowd, which would disperse and start running in all directions like maniacs. It would play hell for straight and accurate shooting, even with a stationary target - which he never was.

Anything else I missed?

 

[Logan]

All of the shots were aimed at his center mass not his head.

I specifically mentioned Cami shot at his back in my post. Not sure where you’re getting head from?

edit:

also, the area the thread originally started in was crowded, yes but i was under the impression the area we are in now (a side alley behind a restaurant) is vastly less populated as general sense would dictate.

 

[Aurius]

All of the shots were aimed at his center mass not his head.

I specifically mentioned Cami shot at his back in my post. Not sure where you’re getting head from?

edit:

also, the area the thread originally started in was crowded, yes but i was under the impression the area we are in now (a side alley behind a restaurant) is vastly less populated as general sense would dictate.

No idea. Must've bled over from somewhere else, I was tired as hell when I replied. If it's going for center mass, then Ven would need to move quite a bit, but it's till feasible to dodge. I'd just need to break the angle you're shooting at, if the bolts are in a straight line. That's the biggest thing, if it's four bolts travelling straight for him, that's one thing. If you're staggering them or following him with your blaster while firing, a zigzag or weave dodging pattern wouldn't work nearly as well. He'd have to pull into a combat roll or change levels (slide, crouch, dive, go prone). But to clarify, when I said dodge I meant a weave or zigzag pattern, while running as fast as those legs can carry him.

I should also mention, as a tidbit because I'm sure someone is wondering, the armor he is wearing is based off of the medieval variant, which was designed to match the speed of a lesser armored opponent - otherwise Knights were damn near useless in battle.