Rise of the Old Masters

[Ral]

I liked this episode, not sure how I feel about the Inquisitor's lightsaber, though. I enjoyed the explanation of "there is no try" at the end. I found myself laughing a bit more in this episode (or was that the scotch? *shrugs*) at the banter. I enjoy that lighthearted back and forth as well as Zeb's teasing of Ezra.

 

[Cortan]

I like that the angle they're going for with Ezra and Kanan's relationship as master and apprentice, at least for now, is one of the teacher having to figure out how the hell he teaches someone. And, well, improve himself. The fight with the Inquisitor, and his remarks on Kanan's fighting style, kinda read like a summary on how whilst Kanan is technically a Jedi, he's only the default in that pretty much anybody who'd be more qualified, are either dead or missing. He fights like an amateur because, for all intents and purposes, he is one. Also sets up the expectation that, once he can take on the Inquisitor, then yes, he'll be more of a fully fledged Jedi.

There were a few annoyances in the episode for me, like Chopper's behaviour near the start (Zeb at least went to actually help after his dickishness led to Ezra's fall), or the mating call (though it did turn around in the end, so... *shrug*). But beyond that, it was certainly enjoyable for me, and I love a bunch of the small details and minor references that slipped in. Zeb arranging the Stormtroopers so it looked like they were fine from the outside, the Empire wiping out - sorry, 'liberating' - worlds with Base Delta Zeroes, a dissent from a senator (though who knows if he was tricked or just faking it to help with the help), Kanan demonstrating martial arts skills outside of his lightsaber, the similarity in effect of Luminara's 'ghost' and the apparitions in the Moraband arc, mention of the lightsaber forms, so forth. I actually, absolutely laughed my ass off when Ezra lit up the lightsaber and, like the joke people make about how reckless Luke was in doing the same, almost stabs it into his master's face.

Though one thing I'm not sure on as to whether it was stupid, or kinda stupidly awesome, is that the Inquisitor's saber throw is basically a lightsaber shuriken.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Fun fact: the senator was voiced by Brent Spiner.

What do you think the explanation is for Luminara's spirit? Was it a 'presence,' for lack of a better term? Was it an echo from the Force-imbued power on her bones? I don't think it's actually a spirit since a) there was no interaction with it and b) that would undercut the canon about spirits.

 

[Cortan]

Fun fact: the senator was voiced by Brent Spiner.

What do you think the explanation is for Luminara's spirit? Was it a 'presence,' for lack of a better term? Was it an echo from the Force-imbued power on her bones? I don't think it's actually a spirit since a) there was no interaction with it and b) that would undercut the canon about spirits.

There's a reason I noted its similarity to what was shown in the Moraband arc. My bet is that its some kind of illusion, perhaps relying on Luminara's general presence still being there thanks to her corpse, by either the Inquisitor or perhaps even Palpatine himself. Think when Yoda confronts Bane, and whilst Bane is able to converse and is clearly driven by some kind of power, Yoda dismisses him as a false image, not an actual spirit.

 

[Kaeb]

This episode was a lot better.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

I love you.

 

[Kaeb]

I know.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

What did you like and not like in the episode? I've been waiting to discuss this episode here for nearly 2 months - give me something to work with!

 

[Kaeb]

I liked the acknowledgements of what are essentially tenants of the Original Trilogy.

''A Jedi isn't just some dude with a glowstick sword, it's supposed to be something more profound than that.''

A direct middle finger to the blatant disregard of those tenants by Lucas in the prequels, which I greatly appreciated.

The training sequence still had a farcical nature to it (as unfortunately, do a lot of scenes on this show, which confuses the tone/brings me out of the story completely and erodes a lot of tension and excitement) by being presented on top of a ship flying through the atmosphere, which is probably just an effect of my own personal interpretation, that training sequences in media and culture tend to be more effective the more simplistic they are. The more elaborate they are, it tends to lessen the effect and becomes more gimmicky than meaningful. It becomes comical and confuses the tone of the moment. This is why 'wax on wax off' is more effective than every single training sequence in Dragonball Evolution, where the trainee is juggling massive objects while conducting a balancing act in the back of a moving truck. It's not impressive, it's not personal, progressive or involving, it's a joke.

This is why Luke trying to lift the X-Wing from the swamp is so effective. And why this training scene, while not bad per se, was a little muddled and short footed, I'd like to think that was intentional from a writing perspective to illustrate Kanan's inability to train Ezra, but I really didn't get that vibe.

Zeb still sucks, Sabine is sucking less, Hera is still great and still looks the part more than most of the other characters. I enjoyed the look of the locations, the flying McQuarrieesque creatures and the look of the technology in play.

Almost everything in the episode, I appreciated and nearly enjoyed, but there are still minor things holding it back, not the least of which is the quality of the animation itself. It still feels stilted and awkward, they need a bigger budget. Before I acknowledge my main dislike, which is somewhat of a superifical one, I'd give this episode a solid 7/10. It's more watchable and more involved than anything they've put out so far, but being a fairly decent take on a Star Wars story isn't that great a feat to accomplish. This episode felt more like it should've been the pilot tbh.

What I'm completely mixed on, is the Inquisitor. I like what they're trying to do with his actual character, the sophisticated elitist approach to conducting warfare, but the look of his character just seems counter-intuitive to all of that. It's like they're attempting to mix archetypes and it's simply not meshing with me. I think the Inquisitor's character represents more of a 'Master who leads from behind/hovering mocking shadow' type, but they're mixing it with a Darth Maul archetype, of 'a lacking in personality marauder' type who charges head on into battle.

Not only should the Inquisitor not have such a dumb ****ing lightsaber, I don't think he should have one at all.

There are a bunch of other points we could get into about the episode, but this'll start is off I guess.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

I liked the training at the top of the ship. It showed a bit of recklessness on the part of the characters, and the color palette of Lothal (which I really like) combined with the fact that they were flying helped give the scene a bit of an otherworldly feel. Which was fitting, considering the scene was about the classical ideas of what it means to be a Jedi.

I liked how they used Yoda's quote too. So many of the callbacks on this show have been incredibly on the nose to the point of distraction (hey! look! it's that thing you love!), but this one was used effectively, becoming the theme of the episode and actually deconstructing the classic line.

I liked the use of Stygeon Prime and the Spire. Those first appeared a few months ago in Son of Dathomir, so it was a nice bit of continuity; it was Separatist, now it's Imperial, and always used for Sith purposes. Plus it had a simple and effective design, and I too liked the creatures.

The animation of the characters is OK to me, but could be better. But one thing I am consistently impressed with is the animation of locations, as well as the Ghost (particularly the exterior). Especially Lothal. Even in the last episode, which was pretty dumb, the look of Lothal, the colors used to set the atmosphere, etc are fantastic.

I don't think that the Inquisitor is meant to be a Darth Maul-style marauder. There's clearly a bit of Maul in there, but the Inquisitor comes across as far more calm, calculating, and methodical than Maul, who was a blunt-force weapon for the Sith (he was a little more calculating in The Clone Wars, but you're not familiar with that so I mostly stuck to Episode I here). I like the Inquisitor's sophisticated elitist characterization, along with the fact that he's still willing to be the guy who goes after the Jedi himself.

The lightsaber... I'm torn. I get the intent - it's meant to scare the shit out of an opponent. Jedi thrive on balance, and an unexpected change in lightsaber like that can throw them off-balance. As soon as the Inquisitor turned on that part of his lightsaber in this episode, Kanan and Ezra hauled ass out of there. What I hope they do is only use that for show. If he starts spinning it in combat, they’ll lose me on it. But for now, I am OK with it.

Couple of other things I liked:

• Luminara being dead, and the Empire using her to lure Jedi into traps. I still don't fully understand how that worked, so I'll be eagerly awaiting the SW.com Episode Guide on Monday to see what the answer is.
• The ending, with Kanan throwing rocks and Ezra swinging at them with the lightsaber. That was classical Americana, like a father and son playing baseball, and I thought it was REALLY effective.
• I'm really happy Sabine was given more to do in this episode. She has the capacity to be a really good character, especially if they take the Mandalorian storyline where I think they will. The fact that she's a female Mandalorian who runs around and kicks ass is also really important in a fandom dominated by teenage boys.

So yeah, like I've been saying for 2 months - this is a really good episode.

 

[Cortan]

...You know, since you bring up the idea of Kanan and Ezra at the end invoking the classic father and son play baseball image, it made me realise there might be a deliberate contrast to the scene, with possible symbolism to it.

As Kaeb notes, them starting off in the clouds is fairly nonsensical if looked at from a practical perspective, but ideally, may have been intended to showcase Kanan's inability to properly teach, even if unlikely. But you can add on to that - he hands off aspects of Ezra's training to Chopper too, and what happens? Ezra fails, stumbles, and almost falls to his death.

And in the end of the episode, they're down on the surface, its Kanan personally helping Ezra rather than playing hands off instructor, and the kid starts to pick up on things much faster. Kanan had to ground himself to start being a good teacher.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Yup, I bet that was deliberate. You can dig deeper into it too, when you factor in that the episode was about the search for a great Jedi Master. Kanan had this fantastical, idealized notion of the way that Ezra should be trained. The moment Kanan started doubting he could live up to the old masters, he wanted to bail and give Ezra to Luminara. He had to overcome those doubts and realize that it doesn't matter if he's the best teacher. He has to commit to the training, and whatever happens happens.

Long story short: he held Jedi training in too high a regard, and ended up needing to ground his expectations.

This next part probably was not deliberate, but the episode is almost a meta-bridge between the prequels and the originals. The prequel Jedi were very fantastical, and the original Jedi were more grounded.

 

[Vulpes]

Is there a way to watch these without having to catch them on TV? FiOS on demand, Disney.com, youtube, etc?

 

[Cortan]

WatchDisneyXD, so long as you have a correct cable provider. Episodes come out early there too.

 

[Vulpes]

WatchDisneyXD, so long as you have a correct cable provider. Episodes come out early there too.

Wow, this looks really complicated. I'll wait for it to show up on demand or youtube >.>

 

[Kaeb]

I liked 'the miracles', that felt more grounded and rag-tag, more Star Wars.

I actually liked the use of force ghosts, it felt emotional, more of a mystery. A residual signature left behind by the living, it falls in line with what we'd seen from Yoda and Ben in the OT, it's never expressly explained how the concept of 'force ghosts' even works in the OT, which is why it's initially so shocking to see it, and it provides the Force with a more grandiose and nuanced aspect as opposed to something more immediately defined and understood. So, yeah, I liked that.

One of my favourite moments was too see Kanan engaging in hand to hand combat without a lightsaber, I don't think I need to explain why, in the context of the headache inducing approach to Jedi combat in the prequels.

I actually liked the mating call signal shtick, the beasts of this universe always felt very old and grounded, very much a part of the world in which they occupied in the OT. It's a hard thing to explain, but whenever you saw a creature, they very much felt in harmony with and directly connected to their environment. Whereas in the prequels, almost no CG created being looked like they belonged to the ecology of the worlds they occupied. There was a grandiose nature to it all, it made the universe feel connected and real, almost ethereal and earthly. As opposed to that one dragon bird thing on Utapau, or all of the beasts in that arena, or much of anything else really.

I liked Ezra being pulled with the Force back up to the ship, even if the set-up felt clunky and Chopper was made to be pointlessly maniacal to the point of complete impracticality.

The dialogue was also a lot better this time around.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Wow, this looks really complicated. I'll wait for it to show up on demand or youtube >.>

It's not that complicated as long as you have account details.

http://watchdisneyxd.go.com/star-wars-rebels

Go there. It'll prompt you to choose your cable provider, and then ask you to provide account details. Once you do, you can watch the episodes.

I actually liked the use of force ghosts, it felt emotional, more of a mystery. A residual signature left behind by the living, it falls in line with what we'd seen from Yoda and Ben in the OT, it's never expressly explained how the concept of 'force ghosts' even works in the OT, which is why it's initially so shocking to see it, and it provides the Force with a more grandiose and nuanced aspect as opposed to something more immediately defined and understood. So, yeah, I liked that.

It’ll be interesting to see how they explain it. Canonically, she is not - and cannot be - the same kind of spirit that Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin became. What those three achieved was eternal consciousness. Luminara seems more like an echo, or a residual signature like you said. Or maybe it was a hologram? Who knows, but that’s the most intriguing question to me about this episode so far. If it was some sort of residual spirit, then it expands the mythology of the Force as it relates to death.

It could even have far-reaching implications, and they could explore it more in-depth both in the show, in the books and comics, and even in the sequel trilogy. Specifically, what if Luminara is not the only echo that’s still around? What if the Jedi, having been betrayed in an era where the dark side has taken over everything, literally can’t rest? Obi-Wan and Yoda would still stand apart from that after their mortal deaths, since they had the training to retain their immortal consciousness, but maybe the other Jedi can’t yet pass on into the Force. Maybe they remain restless until Anakin kills the Emperor.

That’s kinda cool. It’s almost like space purgatory, with some Jedi echoes, like Luminara’s, being used for sinister purposes.

One of my favourite moments was too see Kanan engaging in hand to hand combat without a lightsaber, I don't think I need to explain why, in the context of the headache inducing approach to Jedi combat in the prequels.

Totally agreed. What I like about it especially is that this episode is only the second time he’s used his lightsaber in combat. If this was set during the Clone Wars, he would’ve had his lightsaber out all the time. But unlike Anakin and Obi-Wan, who were the greatest heroes of their age, Kanan is just some guy who happened to have once been a Jedi student. So I like that we’re able to see less of the fantastical and more of the grounded fighting styles he learned in the fourteen years since Order 66, when he rarely ever used his lightsaber.

I actually liked the mating call signal shtick, the beasts of this universe always felt very old and grounded, very much a part of the world in which they occupied in the OT. It's a hard thing to explain, but whenever you saw a creature, they very much felt in harmony with and directly connected to their environment. Whereas in the prequels, almost no CG created being looked like they belonged to the ecology of the worlds they occupied. There was a grandiose nature to it all, it made the universe feel connected and real, almost ethereal and earthly. As opposed to that one dragon bird thing on Utapau, or all of the beasts in that arena, or much of anything else really.

I liked the cat thing too, which we saw when the can or whatever fell off the ship and wonked it in the head. I chuckled.

I liked Ezra being pulled with the Force back up to the ship, even if the set-up felt clunky and Chopper was made to be pointlessly maniacal to the point of complete impracticality.

The visual of Ezra looking up, seeing the ship, and seeing Kanan leaning over the edge was great. The look of Lothal helped with that.

 

[Kaeb]

How I'm viewing the Force Spirit dilemma is on a kind of scale. If through careful concentration and their level of connection to the Force, Yoda and Ben achieved complete progression to become one with the force, I'd put them at a 9 or a 10 on the Spirit scale, but Luminara appears to be teetering on the edge of becoming one with the Force, at like a 2 or a 3, not only is she not all there, but she's still connected in some ways to her own physical body, or at least it's remnants.

There could be all sorts of reasons for this, which personally I hope they don't explain, but I like the idea that if a Jedi is weak in their connection to the Force, or simply doesn't put enough effort into reaching out to that spectral plain, they'll leave nothing but a weak residual signature. You could have it in another story that all a Jedi manages to accomplish is carrying their voice over, like Ben in ANH.

For me, I keep picturing the new story teams at Lucasfilm chiming in on the former Clone Wars team making this show, to keep directing them towards the OT and distancing themselves from the PT. That's just the vibe I keep getting. Whether it's design choices, subtle dialogue queues or even lighting choices, it really feels like a manager or something is hovering over them to keep them in the OT spectrum because that's the direction most of the franchise is now taking. It doesn't feel like an attempt at progression from PT to OT to me, because there's been barely any hold over if any at all from the PT era, from both a meta and in story perspective, it really feels like a series of canonically induced retcons and corrections to the mythos, aesthetic and style of Star Wars.

This episode in particular had a more OT pacing, more OT-like natural dialogue, more OT-like set pieces, tension and visuals and more OT-like depictions of war and Jedi/Jedi teachings. Almost nothing PT, which is great. The training scenes and the assault on the prison are really the best examples of this.

I just hope they don't falter after this episode and settle back into the shitiness of previous iterations.

 

[Cortan]

Well, they're going to a Clone Wars era base in one of the upcoming episodes, but we'll have to see on how that factors in beyond simply being a location to have the plot occur in.

 

[Vulpes]

This is probably my favorite episode thus far. Most of the points have already been mentioned, so I'll try not to focus on them.

So far, I have two issues with the show that is consistent through the series. A) They seem to have Chopper be too...human? I've always had this notion in Star Wars that droids have a limited range of movement and emotions, and Chopper honestly at this point, i think I'd enjoy him more if he was a little Jawa or something rather than a bratty astromech droid. I'm not sure if I'm the only one who feels that way, but I'm really not a fan of him.

My second thing is that every episode it feels that they need to make a reference or joke alluding to the main canon. So far, they've had the "This is not the _____ you are looking for" and the "Do or do not, there is no try." I mean they're neat little references, but I feel like they'll either run out quick or they'll get old. Right now, I kinda like them, but I don't know how much longer I will.