Question about Sith Advancement

[Darkwasp]

While I understand wanting to keep the rarity of players becoming Masters, Lords, and Darths... Is there any alternative ways to advance for those writers who do not enjoy PVP? I have only very recently become comfortable in PVPing with my characters, so I'm sure there are many out there who are like I was.

Forcing someone to PVP in order to gain "prestige/levels" seems like it would restrict some great writers who aren't comfortable with that sort of play. I'm not saying that an alternative route should be simple (perhaps increasing the completed Threads by a lot), but there should be an alternative in a free form system such as this site.

 

[Flamjetxx]

I'm not certain of whether this actually applies, but While ranking up from Crusader to Master, they allow the option to participate in negotiations that end favorably for the Sith, rather than dueling. Though, as far as dueling goes, I couldn't say it is necessary to rank up via duels... Hopefully someone else can confirm this, but it kinda sounds like you're stuck doing duels.

And from an IC standpoint, it kinda makes sense. Whether or not it is a Force-based duel or a Lightsaber-based duel, your charrie could potentially be placed int a situation where he would need to defend themselves, and the Sith (or so I imagine) wouldn't like having their higher ranking officials unable to defend themselves or no know that they could defend themselves, because it would make them look weak- whether they are or not.

 

[Mistress]

My problem is people who don't finish threads. I have been in missions that don't get past the introduction phase. It's a waste of my time, when I could have RPed with someone who would finish a thread that would benefit me to rank up. But I only know a small handful of people who go the distance.

That said, if I duel doesn't even get past page one, and my opponent disappears, can I honestly claim a win? Whereas in promotion requests finished threads are all that truly count. I suppose there is a good reason for me to include character state of mind and growth early on in my threads. At least I can show how I've tried to progress mentally and emotionally, because not many get completed.

 

[Marf]

The problem, Mistress, is that people are only participating in said missions or duels in order to full fill promotion requirements and not because they actually want to RP the thread.

 

[Dmitri]

While I understand wanting to keep the rarity of players becoming Masters, Lords, and Darths... Is there any alternative ways to advance for those writers who do not enjoy PVP? I have only very recently become comfortable in PVPing with my characters, so I'm sure there are many out there who are like I was.

Forcing someone to PVP in order to gain "prestige/levels" seems like it would restrict some great writers who aren't comfortable with that sort of play. I'm not saying that an alternative route should be simple (perhaps increasing the completed Threads by a lot), but there should be an alternative in a free form system such as this site.

The PvP requirement is there so that members, especially newer members, can get experience in PvP. As a higher rank and subsequently stronger than lower ranks, one expects a PC to be able to hold their ground in a fight. The PvP requirement is to immerse members into PvP, especially using that character. The PvP can be done through different routes. It can be a duel that pops up randomly in a thread, an interfactional-sponsored skirmish/battle, a Duel Ring fight, etc. For acolyte-to-crusader, the PvP do not have to be won, but survived. They also do not specify to-the-death.

I'm not certain of whether this actually applies, but While ranking up from Crusader to Master, they allow the option to participate in negotiations that end favorably for the Sith, rather than dueling. Though, as far as dueling goes, I couldn't say it is necessary to rank up via duels... Hopefully someone else can confirm this, but it kinda sounds like you're stuck doing duels.

And from an IC standpoint, it kinda makes sense. Whether or not it is a Force-based duel or a Lightsaber-based duel, your charrie could potentially be placed int a situation where he would need to defend themselves, and the Sith (or so I imagine) wouldn't like having their higher ranking officials unable to defend themselves or no know that they could defend themselves, because it would make them look weak- whether they are or not.

Flamjetxx is correct that the duels are to prepare members to be able to defend themselves. While we don't force members to participate in interfactional-sponsored fights, fights can crop up randomly in threads. The PvP requirements are there to prepare members for those fights. Not only does it help keep higher ranked members alive, it also members to be prepared and have experience in that sort of thing.

As for the diplomatic criteria, that is for crusader-to-master requirements, not acolyte-to-crusader.

My problem is people who don't finish threads. I have been in missions that don't get past the introduction phase. It's a waste of my time, when I could have RPed with someone who would finish a thread that would benefit me to rank up. But I only know a small handful of people who go the distance.

That said, if I duel doesn't even get past page one, and my opponent disappears, can I honestly claim a win? Whereas in promotion requests finished threads are all that truly count. I suppose there is a good reason for me to include character state of mind and growth early on in my threads. At least I can show how I've tried to progress mentally and emotionally, because not many get completed.

We do understand the frustration of unfinished thread. That's why one of the changes made to the promotion guidelines is that we will review unfinished threads and determine if partial or full credit will be given to the thread, even if it was unfinished. However, note that we also look at who posted last. If the applicant for promotion is the person who held up and killed the thread, that will be looked on with more scrutiny than say the applicant posting last or having posted in the last posting round (assuming three or more individuals involved).

The problem, Mistress, is that people are only participating in said missions or duels in order to full fill promotion requirements and not because they actually want to RP the thread.

That is where I disagree but also agree. I think some threads are done for the sake of meeting requirements. However, that does not mean they cannot be impactful/meaningful for the character or involve personal storylines. The missions available are guidelines; they can be tweaked if requested. As per the new guidelines, members can create their own missions/stories like members usually do for personal storylines. They can be submitted for review for applicability for meeting requirements. Thus, members can do their own thing and add those threads in their application to see if they can count for requirements.

 

[Taz]

I have to agree with both Darkwasp and Mistress it's a pain to pvp, mostly because it's at the writer's discretion to accept a hit let alone maiming or death, and threads are abandoned all the time. In fact I have two right now that are that way.

 

[Dmitri]

The PvP can be done through different routes. It can be a duel that pops up randomly in a thread, an interfactional-sponsored skirmish/battle, a Duel Ring fight, etc. For acolyte-to-crusader, the PvP do not have to be won, but survived. They also do not specify to-the-death.

Note the Duel Ring Guidelines:

Welcome to the Dueling Ring!

In this board, you can hold competitive duels with other role-players to see who is the best fighter. These typically take place outside of The Story canon, though they can be site canon if you wish to view them that way. There are only two simple guidelines that we ask of you here in this board:
1) All dueling rules found in the role-playing rules apply.

2) Characters cannot die in duels unless the dueling parties agree beforehand that the duel will be a death match.
See? Simple, painless, and easy to remember. Above all, have fun!

They do not have to take place in canon. The fight is to get experience. Using the Dueling Ring, one can go all out, get experience, and not have to worry about maiming or death.

PvP is not the most enjoyable thing, in my opinion as well. However, it is necessary to prepare members for it. Last timeline, I signed up for a fight, the Battle of Noob Hill. I had never done PvP before. When the fight came, I was greatly under-prepared. I ended up accidentally killing my teammate while trying to kill my enemy in a 2v1 fight. I had never done PvP and found myself unprepared for the fight.

Now, not everyone signs up for fights. That's understandable. As you guys have said, not everyone enjoys PvP. However, sometimes fights can come at you unexpectedly. Take the Quest for Chora or Roxuli for examples. Both times Imperial Knights were drawn into traps and found themselves in fights they weren't prepared for and subsequently the Imperial Knights killed.

The Sith leadership understands PvP is not the most fun. That's why we did not raise the duel count for acolyte-to-crusader and lowered the count for crusader-to-master.

The PvP requirements are to prepare members for fights expected and unexpected. Could exceptions be made? Possible, and would be determined on a case by case basis.

 

[Darkwasp]

The PvP requirement is there so that members, especially newer members, can get experience in PvP. As a higher rank and subsequently stronger than lower ranks, one expects a PC to be able to hold their ground in a fight. The PvP requirement is to immerse members into PvP, especially using that character. The PvP can be done through different routes. It can be a duel that pops up randomly in a thread, an interfactional-sponsored skirmish/battle, a Duel Ring fight, etc. For acolyte-to-crusader, the PvP do not have to be won, but survived. They also do not specify to-the-death.

Thank you for responding to my question. I really appreciate positive discourse between leadership and those who may not fully agree with a situation.

I have one more counter-statement:

Your statement assumes that everyone will be involved in PVP at one point or another, and in a free-form forum that may not be the case. As a writer I can chose to only be involved in threads that I am assured will not turn into PVP threads. This indirectly (and probably accidentally) states, "In order to be a Sith, you have to be able to successfully write PVP".

I believe that someone can create an incredibly amazing Darth character, and create conflict and even crush the opposition without ever PVPing with another player. I also believe that someone can be AMAZING at writing PVP and make trivial and boring characters that are unable to make the right choices to make the Sith/Imperium victorious.

While those are extremes, I'm using them to get my point across. Leadership can just make PVP count more than normal missions to promote people trying it more.

Example: Acolyte Deathkiller needs 15 points to advance to Marauder.

• Social Threads = 0 points (Character development is awesome, but to the Sith/Imperium it doesn't mean much)
• Story Threads = 1 point (Your character is working toward a goal and probably practicing a power or two)
• Training Threads = 1 point (Your character is practicing a skill)
• Mission Threads = 2 points (probably practicing a skill AND helping the Imperium)
• PVP/Duel = 3 Points [or +1 if in another type of thread]
• Event Threads = 4 Points (practicing skills and greatly helping the Sith/Imperium)

Just an option to avoid the "You gotta know how to fight in real life in order to be a Sith" feel.

Another facetious remark: You can't advance in a skill unless you show video proof that you can actually perform it in real life. :p

 

[Dmitri]

I do not assume they will, but that does not mean the possibility of an unprepared fight cannot exist. In the Roxuli thread I mentioned before, Lamia Kressh suddenly found herself in a fight with Sogar Derisma, despite the initial premise appearing to be preparation for training and tutelage.

The premise of the timeline is a war. There is fighting. Though you may not seek out fights, that doesn't mean you won't ever find a fight seeking you. And remember that Sith do have a tendancy to occasionally fight amongst themselves. It's a useful skill to have, even if not used often. Still, I see your reasoning. Remember, there is always room for improvements. The leadership may change the requirements later on, but for not that requirement is there (though as I mentioned before, there can be exceptions, on a case-by-case basis). Even if the duel requirement is removed, I can see it leaving a single legacy of that new members need to participate in one PvP, to get an experience with PvP. Being thrown into a PvP situation unprepared when it does count (such as in a battle or to-the-death) could make a difference. Note, the Imperium is not demanding proficiency and mastery. We understand not everyone enjoys PvP or is good at it, but they should at least have been involved with some.

 

[Rom]

Your statement assumes that everyone will be involved in PVP at one point or another, and in a free-form forum that may not be the case. As a writer I can chose to only be involved in threads that I am assured will not turn into PVP threads. This indirectly (and probably accidentally) states, "In order to be a Sith, you have to be able to successfully write PVP".

I believe that someone can create an incredibly amazing Darth character, and create conflict and even crush the opposition without ever PVPing with another player. I also believe that someone can be AMAZING at writing PVP and make trivial and boring characters that are unable to make the right choices to make the Sith/Imperium victorious.

You can never guarantee that you won't be drawn into a PvP situation. Whether you're ambushed in an open thread, or a threads story transforms into a fighting situation, or you're taking part in one of the main event threads to advance the Story of the Timeline (which I should note is almost always a Battle of some type) you will find yourself in a situation where you will have to fight for your characters life.

Having the dueling requirement for Acolytes ensures that new writers can have a safe and non story impacting (ie ending in their death) experience in learning how to write with another writer in a PvP setting. Especially in the Dueling Ring where there is literally no consequence to your character while you learn the ropes. I know that my practice with PvP writing has helped me explain action scenes and create them in my original story work in a much more satisfying way; it has allowed me to grow as a writer.

Not to mention --- Weiss is case point #1 of why you need to know how to PvP. Every member of the Dark Council and the Jedi Council was expected to fight at Anoth. As the FLs and AFLs of the factions, it was our duty to be there risking our characters just like everyone else to tell the story. If you want to get anywhere into a leadership position, you need to be prepared to take those risks because often times it is you who is neck deep in the battles for the Star *WARS* Roleplay.

And about real life fighting experience coming into play -- I have never had real instruction in sword fighting, nor have I piloted a plane or commanded a naval ship. But I've learned how to roleplay and write those sequences, due in part to being forced to learn how early in my forum writing experiences, and it has allowed me to impact the story of the site in long reaching ways.

Getting the Acolytes to learn these skills means they can take part in more things in the future of the Timeline and contribute not only to their own individual story, but the story of the galaxy itself.

 

[Darkwasp]

You can never guarantee that you won't be drawn into a PvP situation. Whether you're ambushed in an open thread, or a threads story transforms into a fighting situation, or you're taking part in one of the main event threads to advance the Story of the Timeline (which I should note is almost always a Battle of some type) you will find yourself in a situation where you will have to fight for your characters life.

Having the dueling requirement for Acolytes ensures that new writers can have a safe and non story impacting (ie ending in their death) experience in learning how to write with another writer in a PvP setting. Especially in the Dueling Ring where there is literally no consequence to your character while you learn the ropes. I know that my practice with PvP writing has helped me explain action scenes and create them in my original story work in a much more satisfying way; it has allowed me to grow as a writer.

Not to mention --- Weiss is case point #1 of why you need to know how to PvP. Every member of the Dark Council and the Jedi Council was expected to fight at Anoth. As the FLs and AFLs of the factions, it was our duty to be there risking our characters just like everyone else to tell the story. If you want to get anywhere into a leadership position, you need to be prepared to take those risks because often times it is you who is neck deep in the battles for the Star *WARS* Roleplay.

And about real life fighting experience coming into play -- I have never had real instruction in sword fighting, nor have I piloted a plane or commanded a naval ship. But I've learned how to roleplay and write those sequences, due in part to being forced to learn how early in my forum writing experiences, and it has allowed me to impact the story of the site in long reaching ways.

Getting the Acolytes to learn these skills means they can take part in more things in the future of the Timeline and contribute not only to their own individual story, but the story of the galaxy itself.

On the run so I have to do a quick reply.

Like I said in the original post. I actually think its is very cool and interesting for you to have to duel to become a Darth or Lord or Council Member. Those are specialty titles that come with high prestige. However, I as a writer do not like PVP, it's not easy to resolve without outside moderation (which Darth tournaments constantly prove) because no one wants to lose. I feel bad if I lose and I feel bad if I win, because I know the person on the other side wants their character to be just as badass in the galaxy. Like I said, I'm willing to do this now, but had you asked/urged(almost forcefully; can't get better unless you do it) before I took my break from the site, I would have walked away from the faction.

Collaborative story telling means that both/all parties have to agree on a given situation in a story. If a story elevates that change that situation (such as suddenly becoming PVP) those unwilling should have the opportunity of leaving the situation without harm.

Gotta go.

 

[Dmitri]

For anyone looking for a mission/story-oriented duel or more, check out The Luminado Cup.

 

[Black Noise]

On the run so I have to do a quick reply.

Like I said in the original post. I actually think its is very cool and interesting for you to have to duel to become a Darth or Lord or Council Member. Those are specialty titles that come with high prestige. However, I as a writer do not like PVP, it's not easy to resolve without outside moderation (which Darth tournaments constantly prove) because no one wants to lose. I feel bad if I lose and I feel bad if I win, because I know the person on the other side wants their character to be just as badass in the galaxy. Like I said, I'm willing to do this now, but had you asked/urged(almost forcefully; can't get better unless you do it) before I took my break from the site, I would have walked away from the faction.

Collaborative story telling means that both/all parties have to agree on a given situation in a story. If a story elevates that change that situation (such as suddenly becoming PVP) those unwilling should have the opportunity of leaving the situation without harm.

Gotta go.

If you don't like PvPing, then you don't like it. Whether or not to enjoy Player vs Player fighting is the choice of every roleplayer and, as a person who enjoys the conflict, I won't judge you for not liking it.

But understand, this isn't the Rebellion, Hutts, or Jedi we're talking about. This is the Sith. Sith are the bad guys, and every Sith, even the higher ranked ones who rarely do fight, must know how to fight effectively. The only way to prove that is through actual PvP situations, whether canon or not. A Sith who does not or cannot demonstrate an ability to fight others should not be worthy of promotion, and therefore is not.

From an IC point, it makes perfect sense. Even if you disagree from an OOC standpoint. My advice is to make your fights into parts of your story. Keep in mind as well, the requirements don't state that the battles MUST have risk of death or maiming, the requirement only states that you participate in combat.

tl;dr you don't like PvP, I'm sorry, but it's required for promotion among the bad guys and that should not change.

 

[Fat Possum]

tl;dr you don't like PvP, I'm sorry, but it's required for promotion among the bad guys and that should not change.

 

[Andrewza]

Sorry a Jedi here. But I have taken part in a few Duels with the sith and all have been difrent. Duels can made to be a great charater devlopment momunt. I have actualy prever the talking in duels with me trying to convert the Sith and the Sith trying to convert me. All so why should duels be some staged fight. What if you make it a task (say retrieve a holcron) and you must fight each other to get it.

Any case if any body needs a duel partner I am here every day all most.

 

[Black Noise]

 

[Marf]

Out of training, missions and duelling, I actually enjoy duelling the most (and missions the least) and I've become pretty good at PvP for not having practised it a lot. Most of the time I HATE RPing action, like doing missions and learning Force powers, it bores me to tears. What I enjoy RPing are emotions, dialogue and character interaction and I get bored easily with a thread unless there's some level of discussion or emotional intensity. There is actually more of that, I've found in a PvP thread or battle than in a mission or training thread. You can set the scene for the duel really beautifully and give your chars interesting reasons to be duelling or sparring in the first place.

In a battle or duel, I really love describing the passions and bloodlust my chars feel in the thrill of combat... but not in a training thread or mission, they are just so dull. They are only interesting to me when my chars have a certain relationship with the other char that can be portrayed during the thread. Training threads are fun when there is a good amount of discussion, once the practical work starts I just fall asleep. As for missions, I only like them when they are relevant to my own character's story, or contain a good deal of emotion/discussion between characters, I quite enjoy recruiting new Acolytes.

Their personalities, behaviour, philosophy and psychology are why I love RPing Sith, I couldn't care less about the powers and lightsabers.

Defiance and I had a discussion months back, and concluded that my writing is very "feminine"; Action sequences are boring, but social threads with characters just talking can be very thrilling and intense to me.

 

[Dmitri]

Duels can very easily be story-propelling. Especially if you duel a Jedi. If both survive and flee after the initial duel, that's a rivalry that can bud and be nurtured by later encounters.

 

[Andrewza]

that's a rivalry that can bud and be nurtured by later encounters.

or strange friendship

 

[Dmitri]

or strange friendship

Very much so.