Main Faction Membership Limits

[Gaiaverse]

To me this is the most important and noteworthy thing about this. Has the open system aka “no one main faction rule” worked? No according to what has been said above. Did the “one main faction rule” fare any different? No, again according to what has been said above.
Two things are causing the flow of players imo.
The most obvious of course being which side is winning/losing right now. This too has been stated by others before.
The second most important from my experience would be where are most of the people someone writes with. Factions will loose some players/activity if some especially liked person with their character switches to another faction.

I don't think the solution to this whole issue is simply doing away with all restrictions that people don't like or enjoy. Instead we should be thinking about what would be a better way to handle faction loyalty and how we can still allow people, who feel they need to have a character in every faction, to do so.
Rules should give everybody the largest amount of wiggle room without giving anyone a way to abuse them and/or be a douche.

Closing words on the issue of competitiveness:
Why do people argue like crazy in the PvP OOC threads if it's all just in good fun and not about winning? Because that looks plenty competitive to me.
Just because its a written RP and even the lack of UI notwithstanding PvP is still a game and it's about winning. Winning means having competition and that makes it competitive to me.

Your rambling.

Also, from my understanding, this is an RP site, not an PVP game. I will also note that there is no game, not even one's focused on PVP, that prevents team switching or locks one to a specific faction (Ones that are still around, at least).

I also would like you to support your assertion that taking away the one faction rule will hamper faction loyalty or destroy competition.

SWRP shouldn't be about winning (as it is now) but storytelling.

 

[Green Ranger]

Fun thing about this whole argument from what I've seen of it - both sides think their position is 100% valid and any assertion that disagrees with them is rebutted by what more or less boils down to 'I disagree.'

The whole thing isn't so much a discussion of varying opinions as it is a shouting match of who believes they are more correct.

Simple answer is that the faction limitations idea had merit, but ultimately in the greater scheme of things, seems to be doing more harm than good, because we didn't anticipate member attitudes correctly. We still have similar problems to last timeline (unbalanced inactivity, fair weather faction participants, and a whole mess of hurt feelings as far as OOC and player combat are concerned), we've just stacked a fairly broadly unpopular restriction on top of it.

Personally, I think there's still merit in some degree of restriction, but maybe if we just made it good vs evil so to speak, that might be more workable, and help overcome the shortfalls of being involved in the Jedi and the Republic. Maybe.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Brandon Rhea]

SWRP shouldn't be about winning (as it is now) but storytelling.

There does, however, need to be an element of wanting to win, just one that's kept in balance. That's always been necessary to drive the story of this site forward. That's been true for the entire 11 year history of the site, and member attitudes (to take a phrase from Boli's post above) haven't changed in a way that would change that key truth.

 

[FinnSimmons]

Also, from my understanding, this is an RP site, not an PVP game. I will also note that there is no game, not even one's focused on PVP, that prevents team switching or locks one to a specific faction (Ones that are still around, at least).

Well, 'your understanding' has no bearing on reality in this case. The site features PvP heavily and to claim otherwise is simply not true. You yourself take part in PvP. A lot of people do. Enough people see this as a PvP focused site. The whole story is demendant on combat threads to move forward. That has been stated time and time again and not just in this thread.
Locking teams is as old a game mechanic as teams themselves. Both RTS and FPS games have it and most MMOs have your char locked to a faction.

I also would like you to support your assertion that taking away the one faction rule will hamper faction loyalty or destroy competition.

Nowhere did I say that. What I said was that just getting rid of a rule wil solve nothing. Well exept people being able to have chars in both main factions at the same time. To wich I simply added that people can't be trusted because they are people and that in any given rule, be it "one-faction-rule" or no "one-faction-rule" there needs to be sometihng preventing them form taking away form the enjoyment of the other players by being too focused on winning PvP. So far none of the Yay faction have come up with a good idea or even acknowleged the problem. Which is indicative of the aforementioned problem.

SWRP shouldn't be about winning (as it is now) but storytelling.

So is it or is it not about winning? I get that you apparently don't want it to be which I completely agree with. This kind of undermines your earlier statement though, of the site not being about PvP.

 

[Green Ranger]

Also tbh I'm beginning to loathe the term PvP. I mean, it's not inaccurate, I just wonder if sometimes it gives the wrong connotations to combat in the RP.

 

[Gamov]

And sorry for going light on lore when half of you spent the last timeline calling us the devil for trying to tell a story.

We both know there is a fundamental difference between how the last Timeline was manage from a storytelling perspective, and how this one was intended to be handled. So saying "we didn't write lore because people hated us last time we did that" is not a feasible defense. I'm sure you know the difference between providing a compelling backstory for people to absorb and build on at will (free of predestine plot points or essential/"protected" characters), against having people play along with a pre-determined narrative like we did last Timeline.

And to that end, it is my firm belief that in an effort to distance - sprint headlong, would be the more apropos term - away from the "abject failure" that was the Fifth Timeline, the Admin team became gun-shy at the prospect of building up a coherent story framework for people to work with. I understand that, by virtue of how everything was structured, it is really incumbent upon the community as a whole (faction leadership and regular members alike) to build the story. But without much frame of reference from where things came from or why, it's difficult to grasp where things should be going.

So the Sith fought "their last war with the Jedi on hundred years ago". So what? The Sith fight the Jedi all the time. What made that war any different? Furthermore, what has made the Jedi so militaristic? Why are they so bent on, literally, burning the Sith from existence? And further still down the proverbial rabbit hole, what actions did the Sith take that were so extreme as to provoke the formation of the Border Alliance against the wishes of the Senate?

It's answers to questions like those that give people crucial perspective on where the overall story has been. And by extension, why things are going the direction they are at the beginning of the actual story: i.e. - the RP proper. And yes, I know each faction has its own history that can be read by anyone, but wouldn't it be better to combine all of those little segments into one larger overarching story that everyone can glimpse in one place with one click? As opposed to chasing links to put the pieces of the puzzle together yourself? The DotR story page is basically a synopsis of events and, frankly, not very useful as a resource when trying to direct new members to "must read" articles across the site.

And this ties directly into the 1MF rule in that, if I'm going to write a Sith, I really only need to concern myself with Sith history. So I don't need to bother hunting down the articles on Jedi and Republic history. But at the same time, all three factions are inextricably linked in the story together as allies and enemies, so having an easily accessible and coherent plot somewhere that details their histories with each other would be excellent to have on hand. In a way, OOC compartmentalization of critical information has lead to a fair deal of IC ignorance when it comes to story crafting. And this should not be the case when we take into consideration the fact that the Jedi/Sith rivalry is the oldest story in Star Wars. In fact, it is the story.

Certainly not every member of every faction is going to be hyper educated and informed about the history of their chosen faction from an IC standpoint, but they should at least be educated enough from an OOC standpoint to understand why they chose the side they did. And I do not currently feel that the information people use to make these decisions is readily available for them.

 

[Green Ranger]

@Gamov: All else aside (and not to jump into the discussion you're having, since better minds will probably give better responses than me) but in the beginning, last timeline's framework was more or less similar to this one in terms of depth and quantity - it had a bit more information, sure, but I think in your head you're exaggerating just how much was there - after all, the timeline had several years, a skip and hundreds of significant player-driven plots and stories alongside the admin-driven stuff to build the universe, and the Legends lore to call on. Most of the stuff you're talking about that's lacking now is stuff that was created by players back then, or existing literature from the EU.

I guess the point I'm getting at here is really this: if this is a writing forum, and you feel that there's not enough background lore, why not write some yourself? It's never stopped anyone before. I guess I just don't get this whole 'spoonfeed us everything' rhetoric because...well if admins write everything, who is RPing?

 

[Nor'baal]

I think it is not as clear cut than "Yes I am right" or "No you are wrong". The concept of combat RP is fine, if it is matched with a healthy compromise of other styles of RP - ultimately if you don't want to fight, or roleplay that out, then step away from the keyboard. Or get banned from PvP, both methods are effective.

However, those that find RP they are uncomfortable with thrust upon them (either through a hijacked thread or through it being the main way y effect the story) have a valid point in that they do feel there is more to Star Wars that hitting/shooting things until you get your own way.

Combat RP can be fun, but an overly competitive "if you lose you die" style is bad. It makes people angry, and then they take it out on others, and so on.

Why not find a compromise between the two styles? Allow for non-combat to have just as much of an impact as combat RP? Allow for different groups of players to effect the story equally, not have some that are good at writing combat, dominate a storyline.

That being said, the points system to securing domination on the map is odd. It becomes a galactic game of risk - and that causes tensions. You know that if you cock up a post, a month worth of story to control a planet could be wiped away. Sad times.

Lifting the one faction rule would help get rid of that, people would work together on all factions - no be ring fenced in, and glaring at each other through the railings. Working with someone is after all, the best way to understand them.

Also in the spirit of defeating my own arguements.

Also tbh I'm beginning to loathe the term PvP. I mean, it's not inaccurate, I just wonder if sometimes it gives the wrong connotations to combat in the RP.

I agree.

 

[Marf]

For what it's worth, I'm loving this timeline. Sure I have a few quips, but y'know, you can't get everything you want and they are things I've adapted to pretty well.

I always wanted to RP a powerful Sith Sorcerer, which I couldn't do last timeline because of the horrid rank and promotion system, but now there is way more freedom. Personally, I think the site lore being on the lighter side gives players much more room for their own creative interpretation, which they should be taking advantage of to tell their own stories.

It isn't the job of the admins to spoon-feed members a story, but the job of the members to be creative and initiative, to form their own arcs.

ninja'd by boli, who pretty much said the same thing >.>

 

[FinnSimmons]

Lifting the one faction rule would help get rid of that, people would work together on all factions - no be ring fenced in, and glaring at each other through the railings. Working with someone is after all, the best way to understand them.

At least that is what people hope. I would love it too if players would collaborate across factions and turn this into more of a big fun story and less into an awkward struggle for map grids.
Someone noted something important though.

• People being people

We should keep that in mind. Just because.
(No, I will not let this go.)

 

[Arcangel]

Also tbh I'm beginning to loathe the term PvP. I mean, it's not inaccurate, I just wonder if sometimes it gives the wrong connotations to combat in the RP.

I think a better term should be CvC (Character versus Character)

 

[Nor'baal]

Re - Admins writing the story.

Please no ;) I like the admins sure, but it's a spontaneous player driven RP, not a play and we all are actors reading the script.

Dibs on playing @Green Ranger though.

 

[Nor'baal]

I think a better term should be CvC (Character versus Character)

That, is a fantastic idea.

It would change the way people think about it. PvP means that it's @Nor'baal vs @Prudence. Norbs out writes prudence, shit hits the fan, rage ensues.

CvC however -

@Jedan Ridan vs @Prudii Kyramud would be like Lando Vs Boba.

Jedan would at least look good whilst he got totally slapped, unless he got the drop on him. Still a dick move to kill the other character, but a good brawl could come of it. A straight up fight, victory to Mandalore - a dodgy ambush - point one to the Smuggler.

Completely changes it from "I must now find a mistake in your post, and exploit it" to "I must now RP this story between characters."

 

[Gamov]

@Green Ranger - True enough.

[hyperbole and sarcastic wit inbound] - so don't y'all go gettin' yer panties in a bunch ;)

Maybe we'll never know why this timeline has spontaneously combusted like the Hindenburg.

Maybe we really are the horrible people we often joke about being, and crafting a Timeline that lets us punch each other in the face every day has only lent to the animosity.

We may never know how may licks it will take to get to the (what I assume will be) napalm filled center of this internet Tootsie Pop we call SWRP.

What I do know though is, whatever its flaws and drama, this place just keeps on chugging. It's the like the Little Engine that could.

If that little engine was driven by a power mad overlord named @GABAroo, and hauling a cart full of weapons grade plutonium and rabid Star Wars fans who hate everyone and everything that isn't them.

Oh, and it has no breaks.

[/end hyperbole and sarcastic wit]

Whatever the case, I still vote for lifting the 1MF rule.

 

[Gaiaverse]

Well, 'your understanding' has no bearing on reality in this case. The site features PvP heavily and to claim otherwise is simply not true. You yourself take part in PvP. A lot of people do. Enough people see this as a PvP focused site. The whole story is demendant on combat threads to move forward. That has been stated time and time again and not just in this thread.
Locking teams is as old a game mechanic as teams themselves. Both RTS and FPS games have it and most MMOs have your char locked to a faction.


Nowhere did I say that. What I said was that just getting rid of a rule wil solve nothing. Well exept people being able to have chars in both main factions at the same time. To wich I simply added that people can't be trusted because they are people and that in any given rule, be it "one-faction-rule" or no "one-faction-rule" there needs to be sometihng preventing them form taking away form the enjoyment of the other players by being too focused on winning PvP. So far none of the Yay faction have come up with a good idea or even acknowleged the problem. Which is indicative of the aforementioned problem.


So is it or is it not about winning? I get that you apparently don't want it to be which I completely agree with. This kind of undermines your earlier statement though, of the site not being about PvP.

Your putting words in my mouth. Please stop that.

I was saying the PVP focus on this site was a bad thing, and while yes I have taken part in PVP, that doesn't mean crap. PVP itself isn't a terrible thing and is necessary sometimes.

No one has mentioned the issue of "people taking away the enjoyment of other players" if we took away the one faction rule, as the problem has never existed. This has been stated several times by different people.

Also "Both RTS and FPS games have it and most MMOs have your char locked to a faction.". No, they don't. Every RTS and FPS has team switching (And in most RTS's, you can pick your faction before a match) and FPS's actually have a system were you can get automatically team switched to the other team to ensure balance. MMO's also can't stop you from you making an RP alt on the other fact that is 'your' character. There's also nothing stopping you from going to the other faction as another character in an MMO.

But this isn't a video game. This is a forum based roleplay. So how about we not try to make this site 'video gamey"? If I wished to play some competitive game, I would go on steam, boot up Red Orchestra, Project Reality or something and play this. I come to this site to have the thoughts trapped in my mind escape, to let my thoughts be free.

Also, locking one character to a faction is both-A terrible idea, as that prevents redemption stories (Which Star Wars is about) and B-not what you proposed. Hell, it's just a fancy way of saying "Limit people to one faction'.

Here's some quotes made by you in this very thread.

"one main faction”-rule actually made a lot of sense. Would you people not start doubting each other's loyalties if the rule wasn't there?"

"Switching sides and having to move all your other chars either to the same new faction, moving them to indie factions or archiving them is another thing all together than simply having one char in each of the main factions, isn't it? Right now there is at least some kind of hurdle you have to deal with.
Having no regulating mechanism to keep people from griefing is not a good idea."

"Maybe people want to RP with someone specific or simply want to win/don't want to loose. If you can have one char in each faction one of them is going to decrease activity or go inactive or switch sides as soon as his side starts loosing. Happens every time." Also, this is rambling.

So I shall you ask you a few questions
1-Name an instance of a person going to another faction to 'grief' them.
2-Why is 'faction loyalty' important on an RP site?
3-Can you prove that people switched sides when their faction began losing, and not because they lost interest in the faction?

Once you proved the problem actually exists, then maybe we can address it.

 

[FinnSimmons]

No one has mentioned the issue of "people taking away the enjoyment of other players" if we took away the one faction rule, as the problem has never existed. This has been stated several times by different people.

I have been in enough Skype calls at the beginning of the last timeline to know that plotting to ruin other peoples plans and - thereby fun - is common occurrence. And not just in this forum.
It's the internet. People let out their mean streak. Sadly that is just how it is. Being bright eyed and trusting is not going to help the issue.

But this isn't a video game. This is a forum based roleplay. So how about we not try to make this site 'video gamey"? If I wished to play some competitive game, I would go on steam, boot up Red Orchestra, Project Reality or something and play this. I come to this site to have the thoughts trapped in my mind escape, to let my thoughts be free.

You keep bringing this up. I don't think you understand the concept of a 'game'. If you write a CvC (*see above) battle against someone you are playing a 'game'. There is skill, chance and luck involved. It's not just story telling any more. It becomes a competition.

Also, locking one character to a faction is both-A terrible idea, as that prevents redemption stories (Which Star Wars is about) and B-not what you proposed. Hell, it's just a fancy way of saying "Limit people to one faction'.

Redemption stories. That is always the one thing that people bring up. And what happens then? Then you get people that “redeem” back and forth like their character is a ball in a pinball machine. Nothing is stoping you from writing a redemption story right now. It's a made up argument.

Why is 'faction loyalty' important on an RP site?

This forum is not just about story telling but there is also a game for control over the map. Some people take that quite serious. Come on, some common sense please!

Can you prove that people switched sides when their faction began losing, and not because they lost interest in the faction? Once you proved the problem actually exists, then maybe we can address it.

Multiple people already stated that it has been 'common occurrence' during the last few timelines and it's not like we are discussing rocket science here. If I remember correctly there even have been ocasions where main factions dropped so low in members, had they been Indie factions they would have been closed down. If you do not believe me stating the obvious, then please let other more seasoned members tell you again.

That's happened in the last two timelines as well. People like going where they think they're going to win.

We still have similar problems to last timeline (unbalanced inactivity, fair weather faction participants, and a whole mess of hurt feelings as far as OOC and player combat are concerned), we've just stacked a fairly broadly unpopular restriction on top of it.

Personally I am not even opposed to geting rid of the 'one main factoin'-rule. Keepig the one faction rule and fixing the issues that actually plague the forum would be my choice though. Because it's really not the 1MF-rule that is causing these issues. It's the scapegoat. People don't like it and want it gone.
The thought of how to implement the change back and how to handle the issues that have been named, like the usual sudden bursts of inactivity on the loosig faction's side, and the lack of commitment/loyalty to the individual factions are what some of us are thinking about.

 

[Gaiaverse]

I have been in enough Skype calls at the beginning of the last timeline to know that plotting to ruin other peoples plans and - thereby fun - is common occurrence. And not just in this forum.
It's the internet. People let out their mean streak. Sadly that is just how it is. Being bright eyed and trusting is not going to help the issue.
You keep bringing this up. I don't think you understand the concept of a 'game'. If you write a CvC (*see above) battle against someone you are playing a 'game'. There is skill, chance and luck involved. It's not just story telling any more. It becomes a competition.
Redemption stories. That is always the one thing that people bring up. And what happens then? Then you get people that “redeem” back and forth like their character is a ball in a pinball machine. Nothing is stoping you from writing a redemption story right now. It's a made up argument.
This forum is not just about story telling but there is also a game for control over the map. Some people take that quite serious. Come on, some common sense please!
Multiple people already stated that it has been 'common occurrence' during the last few timelines and it's not like we are discussing rocket science here. If I remember correctly there even have been ocasions where main factions dropped so low in members, had they been Indie factions they would have been closed down. If you do not believe me stating the obvious, then please let other more seasoned members tell you again.



Personally I am not even opposed to geting rid of the 'one main factoin'-rule. Keepig the one faction rule and fixing the issues that actually plague the forum would be my choice though. Because it's really not the 1MF-rule that is causing these issues. It's the scapegoat. People don't like it and want it gone.
The thought of how to implement the change back and how to handle the issues that have been named, like the usual sudden bursts of inactivity on the loosig faction's side, and the lack of commitment/loyalty to the individual factions are what some of us are thinking about.

I'm going to take this as a no. You can't think of answer for those questions. Instead just diverting to calling me an idiot, acting smug, putting word in my mouth and stubbornness.

 

[FinnSimmons]

You are right. I did indeed not answer to those questions that were purely confrontational.
Also have I neither called you an idiot nor am I putting words into your mouth. Reinforcing my arguments with those other people made before me is not smug its called 'making your point'. And as to calling me stubborn: I am the one willing to accept both sides as long as it is done right. Lastly, if you interpret telling you the truth as being stubborn then I really can't help you.

I am trying to get some sense of perspective into a - so far - pretty one sided discussion. Arguably the pendulum has swung a bit far and all the way to the other side - from 'be in all factions' to being locked into one - but just letting it swing all the way back again can't be the solution. We have to establish a middle ground that gives people all the freedom they need - or at least as much as they can/should have - to play their characters and at the same time keep certain things in check.
Did being reasonable somehow get out of style?

 

[Jabonicus]

Why should we have loyalty to factions?

Isn't it more important to have loyalty to your character and their stories?

 

[Breeso]

Why should we have loyalty to factions?

Isn't it more important to have loyalty to your character and their stories?

Totally agreed.

Besides, Finn, Gaia, I think that both of you have stated your arguments and disagreed with the other - that is normal, happens in life. But let us not go in circles before this becomes heated.