****ing Islamists.

[Sovereign]

It's a massive difference actually. After all, one of the essential qualities of every ideology on earth, including Islam, is to propagate itself to as many people as possible. That is not evil.

And I'm providing the context for Al Shabaab's actions that the article, and discussion so far, has sorely lacked, while at the same time reminding you that he's a human being that does not speak for Allah, whatever he may think.

Where should I start?

First of all, Al Shabaab is not a person. It's a movement and it means Youth in Arabic. I have no idea why you think that the term Al Shabaab designates an invidual. The fact that you had this impression all along shows how little you know about this topic.

Secondly, forcing your ideology upon others, is evil. There is no way to go around that, and the Koran has plenty of quotations which demands that its followers spread Islam through force if necessary. I'm sure you know these excerpts, so it would be pointless for me to repeat them here. The fact is, the Koran is a violent and archaic book that was written centuries ago and it represents the backward mentality of that time.

Thirdly, you cannot possibly blame the West for the current situation in Somalia. If anything, Somalia needs western intervention in order to save itself. We have ignored that part of the world for decades and we have been far too patient with the numerous islamic insurgencies, who by the way, would all STONE YOU TO DEATH for being a homosexual if they ever got the chance. The simple fact that you are trying to rationalize their conduct is completely absurd.

And Somalia is not a historically muslim state. It's been non-muslim for a far greater part of its history. Not to mention, even if it were a muslim state, it does not mean that its population should be coerced by a group of islamic dumb****s into adopting Sharia law.

 

[Ser Gregor]

Its not belligerent, just not ideal to your tastes.

No one's right in a war, because even what is considered good and bad is manipulated to conform the paradigm of that person. Did it matter that a few thousand people followed Nazism? Not until they started to actually do something. Would the same thing happen if a bunch of Buddhists started protesting pharmaceutical uses of plants? Probably not until they started burning laboratories down. Then that would probably start a war.

You can see Nazism as belligerence.
But then I can see Buddhists as a bunch of lazy ****s who waste their time praying.

Its all perspective.

O hai thar Storm.

 

[Mike]

Where should I start?

First of all, Al Shabaab is not a person. It's a movement and it means Youth in Arabic. I have no idea why you think that the term Al Shabaab designates an invidual. The fact that you had this impression all along shows how little you know about this topic.

Secondly, forcing your ideology upon others, is evil. There is no way to go around that, and the Koran has plenty of quotations which demands that its followers spread Islam through force if necessary. I'm sure you know these excerpts, so it would be pointless for me to repeat them here. The fact is, the Koran is a violent and archaic book that was written centuries ago and it represents the backward mentality of that time.

Thirdly, you cannot possibly blame the West for the current situation in Somalia. If anything, Somalia needs western intervention in order to save itself. We have ignored that part of the world for decades and we have been far too patient with the numerous islamic insurgencies, who by the way, would all STONE YOU TO DEATH for being a homosexual if they ever got the chance. The simple fact that you are trying to rationalize their conduct is completely absurd.

And Somalia is not a historically muslim state. It's been non-muslim for a far greater part of its history. Not to mention, even if it were a muslim state, it does not mean that its population should be coerced by a group of islamic dumb****s into adopting Sharia law.

Where should I start? (TEE HEE! THIS QUESTION MAKES ME LOOK SMARTER THAN YOU RIGHT?)

My mistake about what Al Shaabab actually meant. I've not come across the term before now. The difference it makes to my argument is actually non-existent though. Put my previous post in the plural and it works just as well.

I said nothing about forcing ideologies on other people. Your point was that Islam encourages it's followers to convert others to their religion. My response was that this is true of any ideology.

I think that your assertion that the Koran is essentially violent is absurd and ignorant, unless you also acknowledge that the Bible is a violent text. If so, this brings me back to blaming Jesus for the KKK.

Your assertion that it is archaic is equally banal. Of course it is. It was written centuries ago. What did you expect? The Koran, like any archaic text simply needs periodic reinterpretation. Some forms of that reinterpretation are violent, others are not. Blame the individuals, not the religion.

I'm not rationalizing stoning homosexuals to death. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm giving you context for Al Shaabab's actions. I'm not endorsing them, or saying that I'd like to participate, and again, you insult me by suggesting that.

As to the Western world "saving" Somalia, That's possibly the most insulting and ignorant statement that's been made in this thread. Somalia was a highly prosperous muslim nation until the "scramble for Africa" in the late 1800s when the western world went to war against them, characterizing them as inferior specimens of humanity practicing a blasphemous religion. The Somalians were one of the most successful examples of resisting the invasive and inhumane colonization of the period and protected the religion of it's people against the western/christian colonists for longer than possibly any other country.

Under those historical circumstances, the context that the article and thread lacks, it's not hard to imagine a religious fundamental group trying to reclaim what they consider to be the country's glory days through what we can all agree to be unacceptable methods. KKK anyone?

Blame the individuals, not the religion.

And now, bed =) Talk to you in the morning mate ^.^

 

[Sovereign]

My mistake about what Al Shaabab actually meant. I've not come across the term before now. The difference it makes to my argument is actually non-existent though.

Then don't argue about something you know **** all about, or take the five seconds it takes to look it up.

I said nothing about forcing ideologies on other people. Your point was that Islam encourages it's followers to convert others to their religion. My response was that this is true of any ideology.

I've never used the term "encourage", I said "coerced." Big difference.

I think that your assertion that the Koran is essentially violent is absurd and ignorant, unless you also acknowledge that the Bible is a violent text.

Both texts are essentially the same. The Koran is nothing but a gross copy of the Bible, so obviously, what I said about the Koran stands for the Bible as well.

If so, this brings me back to blaming Jesus for the KKK.

Why are you talking about Jesus? I'm talking about the Bible as a whole, not just Jesus.

Your assertion that it is archaic is equally banal. Of course it is. It was written centuries ago. What did you expect?

A lot of people still think it is relevant today, especially muslims. I fail to see how my assertion was banal.

The Koran, like any archaic text simply needs periodic reinterpretation.

No. We should throw it into the dustbin of history.

Some forms of that reinterpretation are violent, others are not. Blame the individuals, not the religion.

It needs more than a reinterpretation. You basically need to throw half the Koran to render it peaceful. It would be easier to just start over.

And no, I am going to blame the religion because I find it incredibly stupid, like most of the social texts that were written at that time. The religion is the source of the radical's way of thought. Without it, he wouldn't know what to think and he wouldn't dare consider half the things he does.

I'm not rationalizing stoning homosexuals to death. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm giving you context for Al Shaabab's actions. I'm not endorsing them, or saying that I'd like to participate, and again, you insult me by suggesting that.

Oh please, you're not even blaming the "inviduals" as you've said, but the "imperialists" who left centuries ago.

As to the Western world "saving" Somalia, That's possibly the most insulting and ignorant statement that's been made in this thread.

Funny, a lot of Somalians such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali and the ****ing Somalian government (what's left of it) would agree with me on that. Are they ignorant? Or is it just you who is?

Somalia was a highly prosperous muslim nation until the "scramble for Africa" in the late 1800s when the western world went to war against them, characterizing them as inferior specimens of humanity practicing a blasphemous religion. The Somalians were one of the most successful examples of resisting the invasive and inhumane colonization of the period and protected the religion of it's people against the western/christian colonists for longer than possibly any other country.

That happened 200 years ago. Some african countries, such as Botswana, have a far worse colonial past, and today, there are a hundred times more prosperous and less violent than Somalia. Colonialism is no longer an excuse.

Do you think that's ignorant too? Because that's what Nelson Mandala said back in 2000 when he told Mugabe to stop blaming Colonialism for his own failures.

The situation in Somalia can only be fixed by Western intervention. EVEN the United Nations, has called on western nations to participate in the current peacekeeping force that is deployed in Somalia. And the AU (African Union, since i'm going to assume you don't know what that is either) is BEGGING for help.

Blame the individuals, not the religion.

No. I will continue to blame both, because that is the only logical thing to do. The pure and benign version of Islam you seem to refer to only exists in the minds of the assimilated Muslims in the West. The real Islam, the one that is in the Koran and in the Hadith, is being interpreted as it was meant to be by Al Shabaab and other murderous organizations throughout the world.

 

[Mike]

One question before I go to bed, so I can write up an intelligent response tomorrow. Do you consider the Bible's role in Christianity to be analogous to the Koran's role in Islam for the purposes of the discussion we've had so far in the thread? And can I therefore assume that the points you make against Islam and the Koran can be applied to the Bible in Christianity, and to important historical texts in other ideologies and schools of thought? Because if not we have a double standard problem here, and if so we simply disagree about religion in principle.

 

[Sovereign]

One question before I go to bed, so I can write up an intelligent response tomorrow. Do you consider the Bible's role in Christianity to be analogous to the Koran's role in Islam for the purposes of the discussion we've had so far in the thread? And can I therefore assume that the points you make against Islam and the Koran can be applied to the Bible in Christianity, and to important historical texts in other ideologies and schools of thought? Because if not we have a double standard problem here, and if so we simply disagree about religion in principle.

I'm not a Christian and I have no desire to defend Christianity.

I think you should simply stop mentioning it altogether. It's really not relevant.

 

[Will]

I see Islam, Christianity and Judaism as three sides of the same horrible triangle.

 

[Mike]

I'll take that as a yes and that you see religion in general as a problem. I don't necessarily disagree, and if you want to blame religion for the world's problems you wouldn't be alone. Just make sure you apply that bias equally without letting it affect your judgment of Islam specifically.

 

[Jaxx]

I'll take that as a yes and that you see religion in general as a problem. I don't necessarily disagree, and if you want to blame religion for the world's problems you wouldn't be alone. Just make sure you apply that bias equally without letting it affect your judgment of Islam specifically.

He could still think Islam is the worst religion, that doesn't make him biased.

 

[Cailst]

If only we could sic the LRA on these guys.

 

[Sovereign]

I still think that Christianity is better than Islam, simply because the life of Jesus Christ is a bit more inspiring than the life of Muhammad.

Jesus did not marry a 6 year old girl or wage war, nor did he seek to establish a Caliphate over the entire world. Islam is, in my opinion, the legacy of a warlord. It's inherently political which makes it much more pernicious than most other religions.

Though I'm not a fan of Jesus either. The extreme form of pacifism that he preaches sickens me.

 

[Allu'rah Danan]

I may be new around here, but I was under the impression that the point of this site was to have fun together as fans of Star Wars, not to debate viewpoints on politics and religion, although I could be wrong. However, it does seem to me that neither party here is going to concede to the ideas of the other, and that arguements on the matter are quite futile. Each side is going to walk away feeling that they are in the right and their opponent is in the wrong. While it is interesting to see which side everyone is on in this, continuing to argue is pointless, because nobody is going to win.

 

[Ping]

I see Islam, Christianity and Judaism as three sides of the same horrible triangle.

Same here. All three have caused horrible violence.

I don't think war should be used unless it's a last resort, but can we please send Predator drones against these militants?

 

[Lt. Beardsly]

How dare you all debate over my religion.

I am disappoint.

 

[Cailst]

I may be new around here, but I was under the impression that the point of this site was to have fun together as fans of Star Wars, not to debate viewpoints on politics and religion, although I could be wrong. However, it does seem to me that neither party here is going to concede to the ideas of the other, and that arguements on the matter are quite futile. Each side is going to walk away feeling that they are in the right and their opponent is in the wrong. While it is interesting to see which side everyone is on in this, continuing to argue is pointless, because nobody is going to win.

It is for RPing Star Wars. However, we also like to have fun by debating various issues and arguing them for a while. Sure, just about no one is going to be convinced to change their mind through debate but some people have changed. Sin used to be a big commie that was okay with religion but changed in recent years to become a big religionaphobe neocon.

 

[Mike]

I may be new around here, but I was under the impression that the point of this site was to have fun together as fans of Star Wars, not to debate viewpoints on politics and religion, although I could be wrong. However, it does seem to me that neither party here is going to concede to the ideas of the other, and that arguements on the matter are quite futile. Each side is going to walk away feeling that they are in the right and their opponent is in the wrong. While it is interesting to see which side everyone is on in this, continuing to argue is pointless, because nobody is going to win.

It's not pointless if we enjoy it. I'm pretty sure SIN does as much as I do.

 

[Andreus Makaryk]

I said my little piece at the beginning and then grabbed popcorn for the ensuing flamewar, from which my post somehow miraculously escaped.

 

[Sovereign]

No one replied to my post.

 

[Mike]

Because you good-enough to admitted that you see all religions in at least an analogous light, and if your distaste for it runs that deep, then Islam is not the religion I'm going to try to use as an example to try and change your mind.

 

[Sovereign]

Because you good-enough to admitted that you see all religions in at least an analogous light, and if your distaste for it runs that deep, then Islam is not the religion I'm going to try to use as an example to try and change your mind.

So you admit that Islam is silly and bad?