HUTT CARTEL DEBATE 2015

[The Kyzer]

I'm sorry you have issues with me. I hope you can talk to me one on one and work it out instead of snidely attacking me on assumptions you have made without ever getting to know me. I really am not a mean person ^_^

Sreeya, if I had real issues with you, I wouldn't talk to you at all. I'm just an awful person like that. Our views on how the site story should progress are very different though.

The post was mostly for humor (especially the gif) with the sidebar...well question really of what happens if the Defiance Armada Super Totally-Not-Operation-Liberation-Rainbow-but-Yes-Operation-Liberation-Rainbow Team for Make Better Galaxy just runs rampage all over Imperial space. We couldn't do that pre-skip because battles took literal months. Now they take two weeks. Could we fully obliterate the Imperium? Nope. Could we make a serious difference before then? Totally. As for the timeskip expansion nonsense, I've seen the old Imperial write-ups. The Admins simply went with what the Imperium said it had. The phrase "millions of Star Destroyers" comes to mind.

Ugh I feel super guilty for derailing this thread now.

 

[Sreeya]

I'm well aware of the Mandalorian Civil Wars, the "Mandalore the power grab," the run on the blockade, etc. That still doesn't change the fact that Tal Veren has a bounty on his head from the Empire. Regardless of the reason, that's not going to make him a friend to the Empire. If your argument is really that the Mandalorians shouldn't be upset that they're all marked for death because "they brought it on themselves" then I'm sorry, but that's not really a valid argument.

Also, "the time when the Mandos/Imperium co-existed just fine" was before, well you know, the Empress declared that all Mandalorians should be killed on sight. That's kind of like saying, "well the Armenians shouldn't hold a grudge against the Ottomans because they all coexisted before the Armenian Genocide." Negative feelings following genocide tend to outweigh any previous relations.

Fair answer. Very fair! Just hope this can be separated from the faction overall instead of a focused agenda. Otherwise it's not too different than Sith driving the Empire based on their personal agenda.

So your argument essentially boils down to "you don't have enough time IRL left to win, so don't do anything." Maybe we don't have enough time left IRL to finish this story, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done IC. Why would i abandon something that would work IC just because OOC i don't have enough time left? The Rebels and Cartel currently have more forces in this TL than the Rebels did in the movies, yet they won. So, yes, while the Empire may be huge, that doesn't mean they can't win.

No, no I think you misunderstood me. Having the empire falling as a goal is pretty unrealistic at this point. That doesn't mean you can't change the goal for taking down the Empire. It could be Sith influence or any other number of things. But I don't want you to misunderstand and believe that even taking out leadership will make the entire Empire collapse. THAT'S the misunderstanding I'm seeing a lot. And if you want to compare it to movies, then we have to fall back on handwaving things like Legacies, which is what people HATED. Comparing it to the movies is exactly how we had the Skywalker muck up, WHICH funnily led me to do this...

 

[Phoenix]

Fair answer. Very fair! Just hope this can be separated from the faction overall instead of a focused agenda. Otherwise it's not too different than Sith driving the Empire based on their personal agenda.

I gotcha. Yeah and that's why I said in my initial post that I know that's not going to be other people's reason for joining the fight, but that's what drives my personal character since that was part of the question as well. :)

No, no I think you misunderstood me. Having the empire falling as a goal is pretty unrealistic at this point. That doesn't mean you can't change the goal for taking down the Empire. It could be Sith influence or any other number of things. But I don't want you to misunderstand and believe that even taking out leadership will make the entire Empire collapse. THAT'S the misunderstanding I'm seeing a lot. And if you want to compare it to movies, then we have to fall back on handwaving things like Legacies, which is what people HATED. Comparing it to the movies is exactly how we had the Skywalker muck up, WHICH funnily led me to do this...

That's a fair point. Or maybe we can just go after the Empress because ya know..... Andraste is

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Going to chime in here real quick (and by quick I mean HELLO WALL OF TEXT).

The Hutt Cartel has been an interesting faction in that its path is open for debate, because it could go in any number of ways. It’s not like, say, the Jedi or the Sith where you know exactly what their goals and intent are just by virtue of the fact that they are Jedi and Sith. That’s why I’ve always called factions like the Cartel, the Mandalorians, and the Chiss “wildcard” factions, because they could go in different directions.

There are two primary schools of thought for what the Cartel should do:

• Play both sides from a high-level standpoint, but also let individuals do what they want
• Throw in with the rebellion and fight the Sith

I think we’ve gotten too caught up in debating one versus the other here that we’ve neglected to mention an important point: both are equally valid from an in-universe perspective.

So let’s look at each one:

1. Play both sides. This is very much in keeping with the idea of a criminal organization. Criminal organizations generally don’t have any political ideals, so they’re not going to support the politics of the rebellion or the Sith. If there’s an opportunity for war profiteering, it makes complete sense to do so by playing all sides. That was the original intention behind the Hutts, but unfortunately the early faction leaders did not do anything of note with the concept and the faction floundered.
2. Side with the rebellion. This is very much in keeping with the idea of self-preservation. The Empire may not have any intention of targeting the Cartel now, but the Cartel leaders would realistically have to wonder if that stance is going to change someday, especially if the Sith do take over the entire galaxy and crush the rebellion. The Cartel leaders are going to have to ask, why would the Empire let this region of space remain independent as a criminal empire rather than just subjugating it? OOC, the Sith faction leaders are 100% truthful when they say they have no plans of conquering the Cartel. IC, the Cartel leaders have very little reason to believe that. Even with Imperial citizens enjoying relative freedom, historically the Sith are an oppressive force and the Hutts would definitely consider that as a realistic outcome in the years to come.

So both of these options make a lot of sense, and either one of them is viable and realistic from both an OOC and IC perspective.

There’s sort of a proxy debate going on here between a lot of people who have an interest in this going one way or another, and those people are on both sides. So I would say this: whoever the faction leader is, let them make their own decision. Let them come to their own conclusion without trying to influence them one way or another. This conversation is healthy, but it becomes less healthy when it just ends up being a tug of war between the rebellion and the Sith, with the Hutts caught in the middle.

And for the record, since Kyle has referenced it a couple of times now during this election process, that’s why I told Kyle he needed to step down as Hutt AFL. When one person has a prominent leadership role in more than one faction, and in this case being the de facto FL of two factions, then ultimately one faction is going to become the tool of the other and that’s a disservice to the faction that’s being made a tool. It's an unfair wielding of power. If the new FL reaches the same conclusion on their own then that’s fine, but the faction deserves a FL that makes that decision independent of other biases.

Which isn’t to harp on Kyle by any means. Just to further illustrate the point that, if the Hutts really want to be successful in the last two months of the timeline, then they need a FL who will make decisions on their own and in consultation with their players, rather than because other factions are influencing them one way or another. Whether that FL is Phoenix or Nor’baal, I hope they take to heart the fact that they are under no obligation to go one way or another, that they should reach their conclusion based on what the faction and the AFLs want to do, and that they should make the decision that they feel is in the best interest of the faction.

Now, with all of that out of the way, there’s one other point I wanted to clear up:

As for the Defiance Armada/Rebellion jab about how we can win every battle and still not make a difference, we're merely doing the same strategy you used to justify an Imperial victory pre-timeskip.

I could be misreading this, and Kyle knows that when he soaks his posts in sarcasm it's very difficult to discern when he's being serious and when he's not (GOOD JOB KYLE), but just in case this was serious I want to respond to it since the implication seems to be that the Sith leaders, including Sreeya (because of the bolded you in at quoted post), were the ones who made that decision.

The first time we talked about the possibility of a time skip involving a rebellion was during the conception of this timeline, before we knew where any of this was going to go. We always knew we wanted to try a rebellion era if the timeline allowed for it, because a) it’s classic Star Wars and b) we did something similar in the first timeline and it was probably the most successful part of that timeline. Once it was clear, nearly two years after the timeline started, that the Sith were headed for victory and that the Jedi/Alliance faction was woefully outmatched and honestly stood no chance from an OOC perspective, we decided to move forward with the time skip and shake up the story. Without it, the timeline would’ve ended 2 years ago.

Something to keep in mind with how the story unfolded too was that while the Alliance proper fell during the fall of Coruscant, strong remnants of it continued to exist for a few years afterward (this wasn’t RPd, it was reflected in the skip write up/timeline history). The same thing could happen with the Empire if battles on Anaxes or Bastion were a total loss for the Empire. I could envision the central Imperial government collapsing, but there are enough military power clusters around the galaxy that there would still be powerful Imperial remnants that could coordinate with one another. So I agree with Kyle that a massive dent could be made against the Empire, but I also agree with Sreeya in that the total collapse of the Empire being RPd out isn’t realistic in the time we have left.

So the reality of the situation is in the middle ground between those two points.

 

[Nor'baal]

I think Brandon has summed this up very well, and due to me being on my phone I am going to be brief.

I firmly believe that the best course of action of to, at a high level, adopt a "play both sides" style. I know this will upset some people, which is why I say this - individually, players can support either the Sith or the rebels - and indeed as FL I will encourage it.

ICly the faction will not back one side publicly under my leadership, but ICly the faction will secretly support members playing the sides off and profiting from both.

I'm very much aware this can and probably will lead to IC conflict with the Sith, but for a faction of criminal scum, playing off both sides simply makes the most sense.

 

[Dmitri]

Not to mention, after the fall of the Imperium, the Cartel can turn on the Rebellion and keep them weak, preventing the rise of a new galactic superpower. No galactic superpower means less resistance to Hutt corruption and profits.

 

[Sreeya]

Not to mention, after the fall of the Imperium, the Cartel can turn on the Rebellion and keep them weak, preventing the rise of a new galactic superpower. No galactic superpower means less resistance to Hutt corruption and profits.

In that case should the rebels be allying with them knowing that SOME DAY the Hutts can turn on them and prevent them from growing? The same fear that's driving Hutts to turn on Sith? Mwahahahaha

 

[Nor'baal]

The Hutts could always adopt a "Putinesque" tactic. Just nab a planet right on the border, or corrupt a Sith planet near their space, cause a war and then totally not send troops in to help.

There is a lot of story potential with the Cartel, and the Sith using the cartels criminal nature and the uniqueness of this to develop some interesting stories.

 

[Livgardist]

If Norbs becomes faction leader of the Hutt Cartel, he will be renamed Vladimir Huttin...

>__>

Bad joke. I'm sorry. <__<

Question to both of you, mostly out of curiosity. How do you forsee your character (new or old, whichever one you plan to use/create for the role) taking power over the Hutt Cartel? Like, what will be your "explanation" for how your character replaces the current leader(s?) of the Cartel?

Also; Compulsory Cartel toga parties - yay or nay?

Edit: One more question - how necessary do you feel that it is to have a Hutt as head of the Hutt Cartel, and will your IC FL character be one?

 

[Eccles]

I think they'll create a new FL-character, or even just NPC one. Neither will use their current (lower level) characters :D

Right, guys? Right? RIGHT?

 

[The Kyzer]

(GOOD JOB KYLE)

There may come a day when I'm 100% serious in a post on SWRP, but it is not this day. My argument was simply that the continued ULTRABEATDOWN, Imp-Hate Edition, could (and would) have a serious effect on the timeline ending. Obliterating the entire Imperium may not be possible, but damned if we aren't going to try. :D Our characters wouldn't know that the timeline's ending. Why would they act like it?

Not to mention, after the fall of the Imperium, the Cartel can turn on the Rebellion and keep them weak, preventing the rise of a new galactic superpower. No galactic superpower means less resistance to Hutt corruption and profits.

As I told Sreeya on Skype, a democratic government is much easier to mess with/corrupt/control than the Imperium. I'd also like to make a little note that the leader of the Rebellion is not leading for altruistic raisins.

#CartelVictory2015

As for the planned "Shadow War", my main argument against this is that we already did that for 2 years. What happened in that time-period? Oh right, the Cartel lost Thyferra and everyone lived in terror that the Imperium would show up on their doorsteps and faceroll them. It doesn't work. So I personally changed it after everyone was telling me how bored they were with the site as it was and the Cartel basically playing with itself. If anyone wants to blame someone for why the Cartel's at war, blame me. However, as for your "can't lead a horse to water"-line, we (Frank, ZayPat, and I) asked the Cartel membership via Skype if they wanted war and they wanted war. So we went to war. Backing out at this point endangers the Cartel in so many ways that I don't have the patience to describe. Plus, there's two months left. Make something of it.

Your options at this point are basically for the Cartel to help decide the fate of the galaxy or to walk away and play with yourselves until the timeline ends.

Yes, Brandon's completely right in saying that an FL has the right to choose what direction his/her faction takes, but there comes a point when you have to listen to your membership and the site as a whole and make a real choice. Nor'baal's choice just doesn't fit with the site or fit with this little rule here:

B. All factions will be able to participate in the war and should make a great effort to always be included in one way or another. Independent factions are just as important as the major factions and it is recommended that they try to get a bigger role in the war in an effort to where they could possible affect the outcome.

Well, I suppose it does if your effort to affect the outcome is to abandon what few allies you have.

Oh no. I got serious for a moment!QUICK, BACK TO FUN since this is a FAN FICTION WEBSITE where we all try and have fun. That's the point, remember?

 

[Phoenix]

If Norbs becomes faction leader of the Hutt Cartel, he will be renamed Vladimir Huttin...

>__>

Bad joke. I'm sorry. <__<

Question to both of you, mostly out of curiosity. How do you forsee your character (new or old, whichever one you plan to use/create for the role) taking power over the Hutt Cartel? Like, what will be your "explanation" for how your character replaces the current leader(s?) of the Cartel?

Also; Compulsory Cartel toga parties - yay or nay?

Edit: One more question - how necessary do you feel that it is to have a Hutt as head of the Hutt Cartel, and will your IC FL character be one?

That's something I'd already thought a bit about and tbh i'm not totally sure. I might just leave the current Grand Lord where he is. As for whether Hutts need to run things, personally I don't feel that they do. I personally am not a huge fan of the actual "Hutt Council." NPCs just sitting at the top seems a bit ridiculous to me. The Sith did that with the Dark Council but eventually realized that was pointless and put actual PCs in place. Similarly, I'd like to put actual PCs in places of power and able to drive the faction rather than just having a bunch of NPCs that no one ever uses. I think it would help put power back into the hands of the members rather than just leaving it all with the FL and AFLs. That all is just my personal opinion, and is more than open to what the rest of the faction thinks.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Let's please end this discussion now. Everyone has made their point. Move on to a new discussion topic.

 

[Eccles]

Yes, Brandon's completely right in saying that an FL has the right to choose what direction his/her faction takes, but there comes a point when you have to listen to your membership and the site as a whole and make a real choice. Nor'baal's choice just doesn't fit with the site or fit with this little rule here:
Well, I suppose it does if your effort to affect the outcome is to abandon what few allies you have.

This is not at all what Nor'baal has been saying, though, is it? He wants to profit both sides, thus impacting the war in a major fashion not just by thumping down the Empire, but also profiting from it in other ways. It's not really fair to suggest he'll go all rulebreaking and boring on us.

EDIT, Brandon ninja'd me with a decree :(

 

[The Kyzer]

NEW DISCUSSION TOPICS!

@Norby @Phoenix

How long do you feel is understandable for a faction's leadership to process new sign-ups? What about promotion requests?

Also, since people brought it up, how would you handle the Hutt Cartel's IC Leadership (Hutt Council, Granee Lorda, etc)?

 

[Phoenix]

NEW DISCUSSION TOPICS!

@Norby @Phoenix

How long do you feel is understandable for a faction's leadership to process new sign-ups? What about promotion requests?

Also, since people brought it up, how would you handle the Hutt Cartel's IC Leadership (Hutt Council, Granee Lorda, etc)?

For sign-ups ideally i'd say that they should be handled within 48-72 hours (if not sooner). For promotions it kind of varies depending on what rank you're applying for (higher ranks have more threads so that takes longer to review). It really shouldn't take more than a week I wouldn't think. And those time frames are really at the max end. In theory they can usually be handled faster than that especially if the staff is working together to divvy up the work.

As for IC leadership, I kinda feel like I just covered that. I'd like to see the PCs having the leadership roles. I think having a bunch of Hutt NPCs is kind of an archaic way to do things, and is one of those things that was initially implemented only to find out that it didn't really work all that well so they were just turned into NPCs that no one ever uses. Well if no one ever uses them why keep them as a hinderance to the actual PCs? As for the Grand Lord, I would probably leave the one that's already there, although I don't really feel that its an absolute must that the Grand Lord be a Hutt.

 

[Eccles]

Wait, If I can quickly interject (is that the word?) here..

You're planning to take the Hutt, out of the Hutt Cartel? Don't you think that's a bit too ambitious seeing the timeframe? OOCly, fine, but ICly you can never simply justify a non-Hutt taking power especially in the very limited timeframe.

EDIT: Honestly, from an IC POV of my character, he'd retire his life of crime immediately.

 

[Phoenix]

Wait, If I can quickly interject (is that the word?) here..

You're planning to take the Hutt, out of the Hutt Cartel? Don't you think that's a bit too ambitious seeing the timeframe? OOCly, fine, but ICly you can never simply justify a non-Hutt taking power especially in the very limited timeframe.

I'm not saying taking out the Hutts all together, as the Grand Lord would still be a Hutt. I'm not even saying that this HAS to happen, but the wheels were actually already set in motion to eliminate the council so its not extremely far fetched that it could happen. That said, there may not be enough time for that and there may not be support for it from the membership at large, but its just a thought. And the reason being: I think it would help free up PCs to actually wield more power since, tbh, at this point even Champion characters have very limited authority in what they can do. This would be a way to give power back to the people.

I would be interested to hear from other people why it is so important to keep the Hutts as the figure head given that, if we're really honest, they don't do anything except limit what the actual members can do?

 

[Eccles]

I'm not saying taking out the Hutts all together, as the Grand Lord would still be a Hutt. I'm not even saying that this HAS to happen, but the wheels were actually already set in motion to eliminate the council so its not extremely far fetched that it could happen.

I was told that elimination of the council was NOT in the cards. Is this OOC or IC?

I would be interested to hear from other people why it is so important to keep the Hutts as the figure head given that, if we're really honest, they don't do anything except limit what the actual members can do?

Technically, because this is the Hutt Cartel. Powerful Hutts banding together to be even more powerful. The power comes from their clans, not from the Granee Lorda. The fact that they haven't done anything is all because previous FL teams haven't made them do anything, to be fair.

EDIT: I'd like to add that it's been one of the more returning reasons of criticism on Hutt FLs, that they refuse actually RPing the Hutts and drive the Faction's story on their own characters (thus creating the OOC mess)

 

[Phoenix]

I was told that elimination of the council was NOT in the cards. Is this OOC or IC?



Technically, because this is the Hutt Cartel. Powerful Hutts banding together to be even more powerful. The power comes from their clans, not from the Granee Lorda. The fact that they haven't done anything is all because previous FL teams haven't made them do anything, to be fair.

Like i said, I'm curious what the members think. This is far from a done deal, just something I'm posing as a possible way to give the members back more power. Because you hit the nail on the head when you said "previous FL teams haven't made them do anything." The council really kind of forces the membership to not be able to move without approval from the FL, I'm just trying to think of ways to remove that obstacle. This is a possibility but very far from definite.