House Bill 2 - North Carolina

[Prudence]

Hai guys

I don't spend much time here (the current affairs section) but I have noticed that a lot of you guys have very passionate good opinions on politics, so I was hoping to raise an issue I'm sure a lot of you have heard about.

As most probably know in the news, North Carolina (my home and current state) passed House Bill II, that, among other things, restricts the usage of restrooms to the sex listed on your birth certificate.

The Federal government has disagreed with this bill, and the policies it sets, and are currently trying to get North Carolina to repeal, or ignore, the bill. The Feds gave NC Government, and the University of North Carolina System (UNC) until Monday to denounce the bill and call it discriminatory.

While the UNC system agreed to do that, the Governor refused, and thus the Federal government is threatening/preparing to withhold education and transport funding from the state.

Thoughts? Do you think that the feds should damage the state in order to undo the bill? Do you think the bill is right? Other thoughts?

I'll voice my opinion later on if this gains some traction.

 

[Richie B.]

Honestly the Feds shouldn't do that, but I am against the bill the federal government can not risk the next generation (school funding) over this because public schools need all the money and help they can get currently. Honestly though if the governor isn't going to listen to the people and the citizens of North Carolina are upset about it and he still doesn't change his mind. Than he should be removed from office for not listening to what the people want and for just being discriminating against people from his own state.

My two cents

 

[Prudence]

Honestly the Feds shouldn't do that, but I am against the bill the federal government can not risk the next generation (school funding) over this because public schools need all the money and help they can get currently. Honestly though if the governor isn't going to listen to the people and the citizens of North Carolina are upset about it and he still doesn't change his mind. Than he should be removed from office for not listening to what the people want and for just being discriminating against people from his own state.

My two cents

Well it is an election year, so we'll see how that goes. Personally, I'm for parts of the bill. I don't think anyone should be discriminated against in the work place, and I think the clause that prohibits suing in state courts is wrong. However I think there is risk of people masquerading as transgender (not the actual trans themselves) for sexual assault. More of a sheep in wolves clothing type deal.

I do however think it is super wrong for the federal government to lay economic siege to my state in hopes to bully us into cooperation. You can't punish every citizen in the state just to push them to repeal the law. That is beyond dirty and wrong.

 

[Richie B.]

@Prudence thing is the whole disguising as transgender thing is really poor reasoning because if sexual assault is going to happen will happen either way (sadly).

People can sneak in, and have plenty of other methods of going about it, using transgender is a way at going at it, and realistically is not going to happen if at all. I would explain how using transgender to go into restrooms and assault someone is a stupid idea but there isn't any way at going at it that doesn't make me sound crazy. I am currently trying to be a police office and study the law and crime, at college and can honestly say that the whole sheep in wolves clothing deal wont actually work like that, at least not for this type of thing.

 

[Prudence]

@Prudence thing is the whole disguising as transgender thing is really poor reasoning because if sexual assault is going to happen will happen either way (sadly).

People can sneak in, and have plenty of other methods of going about it, using transgender is a way at going at it, and realistically is not going to happen if at all. I would explain how using transgender to go into restrooms and assault someone is a stupid idea but there isn't any way at going at it that doesn't make me sound crazy. I am currently trying to be a police office and study the law and crime, at college and can honestly say that the whole sheep in wolves clothing deal wont actually work like that, at least not for this type of thing.

I mean my rationale is this: if someone is gonna be a sex predator, yeah they're gonna be a sex predator. But at one of the primary institutions that HB2 protects is schools, where you have potential predators because you have a lot of guys going through puberty and struggling with hormones. Sadly, at least in North Carolina, our teachers and school administrators aren't really paid enough to care. If they're told that policy is that guys can be expected to be seen in a girls room and its okay, then its okay. And while they might not assault the girls there, its the breach of privacy. One of them that isn't actually transsexual could walk in much more easily, and it'd be harder to get them in trouble or prevent them from it.

 

[Richie B.]

@Prudence

Thing is if someone goes into a restroom to sexual assault someone they would do it with or without the disguise of the transgender thing. Honestly none of the teachers check the restroom, and there is physically nothing stopping a guy from already hiding in a restroom to sexual assault someone. The way a sexual assault would be stop is by someone entering the restroom, most likely another student.

It is a breach in privacy sure, but the chances someone using it to sexual assault someone is minimum, as its not a good cover to hide the fact that it happened, plus kids can hide in the girls bathroom without that rule as, if no one is currently in the restroom they can go in hide themselves before anyone seems them and even without the rule that allows transgender people to go into the restrooms they should be allowed to go to, people have been doing this, nothing really is going to change in all honest.

Really if you think that only suddenly boys are going to sneak into girls restroom now that they can claim they are actually transgender is not true, they already do it and if someone is in there for long time, there will be questions ask.

What I am trying to say is unless your school has security guards outside a restroom there really is no way of stopping this from happening, and to think that preventing transgender from going into their true restrooms is going stop this behavior is wrong.

 

[Black Noise]

Let the states sort it out for themselves, the government shouldn't be deciding law for everyone on instances like this. If you don't like the law, move, vote with your body mang.

I don't feel comfortable knowing someone of any age with a penis can walk into and use the bathroom right next to my 11 year old sister. A person whom I do not know in any way, whom I do not know if they are seriously Trans or not, being unquestioned in going to the same bathroom as my sister. I don't think that's safe. I'm glad you found your identity, but if you have a penis, don't go to my sisters bathroom.

And because I am not trans, I have no authority to make sure that she'll be alright. I have to trust that the trans person is a safe person. I don't believe there is any innate good in humanity, so from my perspective, I'm going to assume that among the people with penises who would fight to use the same bathroom as young girl are those who would take advantage of the law for their own sick perversion.

Especially since the pedophilia rate is constantly growing.

Edit: and the same people who want this are people who believe that 1-4 women are raped. Is this law going to reduce or increase that statistic?

Edit again, Ben you make the argument that this would happen either way. Well no it wouldn't, if there wasn't a law protecting a person with a penis from entering a public bathroom, then Id make sure myself that the person would not be allowed in the bathroom. What this law does is give people who are not required to prove they're trans in any way other than verbal confirmation free reign to go where they want.

I don't feel comfortable with that. Giving that kind of strawman argument is like saying we should make murder legal because murderers are going to murder anyway.

 

[Outlander]

OK, so. I'm pretty opinionated on this, since I know someone who is transgendered. I'll be the first one to say she is able to use the men's restroom, because she is essentially a man. I don't care if she has a penis or not, she looks, acts, and identifies as a man. So why would we force someone who is fairly clearly a man into a restroom for women?

@Black Noise I really disagree with you on a lot of points in your post:

For starters, there is no reliable statistical evidence of anyone whose transgender committing sexual assault in a bathroom, or at least none I could find. Not to mention that 80% of people whoa re sexually assaulted are assaulted by someone they know. Compounding on that, last time I checked, both restrooms for men and woman have stalls, which you are able to lock, meaning that it doesn't matter anyways who else is in there, since there's no easy way to access you while you're in the stall.

Not to mention you're pointing out trans people specifically. Women are just as capable of committing sexual assault against other women, and I guarantee I can find some statistics on that if you need them. Does that mean we should also ban women from using the women's restroom, since there's data to show that women sometimes rape other women?

I understand if you're not personally comfortable with it. However, that doesn't give you the right to deny other people privileges due to that.

 

[Richie B.]

Here is my point and how it really doesn't stop it.

So a boy sees that no one is in the female restroom, so he goes in, an watches girls, than leaves no one the wiser because no one is checking the restrooms, but now you are going to make it so people that just woman that were either born a man, or haven't had the surgery yet, can be arrested for going into a restroom they should be allowed into? How do you propose watching who goes into the restroom 24/7 because that's the sort of thing you would need to do than, Im saying allowing Transgender to use the restroom they feel they should be allowed to do isn't going to increase sexual assault. Because suddenly a magical door that locked boys out of restrooms that are not checked or supervised can suddenly get in now?

An here is something to consider, if more people uses a restroom it would actually make it less likely for a sexual assault to happen there, because that means less time for someone to try something before someone else comes in a gets the police or some other member of authority into the situation.

Again the argument is basically security or freedom which do you prefer to have, because once you start taking freedom away that is a slippery slop there.

@Black Noise I haven't done much research but I haven't seen any numbers of pedophilia rates growing up, maybe its becoming more talked about but I haven't seen it becoming more common.

Again this is just how I see things.

 

[Black Noise]

OK, so. I'm pretty opinionated on this, since I know someone who is transgendered. I'll be the first one to say she is able to use the men's restroom, because she is essentially a man. I don't care if she has a penis or not, she looks, acts, and identifies as a man. So why would we force someone who is fairly clearly a man into a restroom for women?

@Black Noise I really disagree with you on a lot of points in your post:

For starters, there is no reliable statistical evidence of anyone whose transgender committing sexual assault in a bathroom, or at least none I could find. Not to mention that 80% of people whoa re sexually assaulted are assaulted by someone they know. Compounding on that, last time I checked, both restrooms for men and woman have stalls, which you are able to lock, meaning that it doesn't matter anyways who else is in there, since there's no easy way to access you while you're in the stall.

Not to mention you're pointing out trans people specifically. Women are just as capable of committing sexual assault against other women, and I guarantee I can find some statistics on that if you need them. Does that mean we should also ban women from using the women's restroom, since there's data to show that women sometimes rape other women?

I understand if you're not personally comfortable with it. However, that doesn't give you the right to deny other people privileges due to that.

You know trans people. So do I, what is your point?

Your friend sounds great, good for her, picture perfect definition of why people want this law.

Except so far all I've read is stories about people claiming to be trans, entering public bathrooms, then masturbating. What's stopping them from doing this, make it illegal to masturbate in a bathroom?
http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/may/9/abuse-victims-speak-transgender-bathroom-laws/?page=all
Here's a story for you, and the reason you can't find others is because no media outlet will cover them. Just like Microsoft, apple, and other big companies that are for this law and against NC still sell their products in countries where Trans people are executed. It's called a double standard outlander.

Actually, it does, I can have the opinion and feel unsafe about my own family being in the same bathroom as someone who might have come there to sexually assault, abuse, or masturbate to them. I have the right to vote against that law in my state, and I will do so. It's not about denying privilege, it's about keeping women safe.

 

[Prudence]

The issue isn't really trans people committing these sex crimes. It's that there is no problem with seeing a man in the woman's restroom, and no repercussions for it. It's not like you could report it to administration, or security, and have them punished or removed. All they have to do is say they're transgendered. If we are truly going to adopt gender identity as a thing, which personally I'm not for but that's just personal opinion, it should be as difficult as changing your legal name. If you can change your legal name, then go through those channels to change your legal sex. Otherwise it's just verbal confirmation like BN said.

I don't think anyone with a penis that has made themselves look extensively like a girl is going to be a predator, but I know not all trans people have gone through transformation due to finances or otherwise. So should this become the norm, beards, masculinity, and penises will become the new norm in the women's room.

 

[Prudence]

You know trans people. So do I, what is your point?

Your friend sounds great, good for her, picture perfect definition of why people want this law.

Except so far all I've read is stories about people claiming to be trans, entering public bathrooms, then masturbating. What's stopping them from doing this, make it illegal to masturbate in a bathroom?
http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/may/9/abuse-victims-speak-transgender-bathroom-laws/?page=all
Here's a story for you, and the reason you can't find others is because no media outlet will cover them. Just like Microsoft, apple, and other big companies that are for this law and against NC still sell their products in countries where Trans people are executed. It's called a double standard outlander.

Actually, it does, I can have the opinion and feel unsafe about my own family being in the same bathroom as someone who might have come there to sexually assault, abuse, or masturbate to them. I have the right to vote against that law in my state, and I will do so. It's not about denying privilege, it's about keeping women safe.

Hey BN I think you're backwards.

Charlotte passed an ordinance legalizing this, and then NC Goverent struck it down with HB2. The current law is anti-trans restrooms.

 

[Outlander]

You know trans people. So do I, what is your point?

Your friend sounds great, good for her, picture perfect definition of why people want this law.

Except so far all I've read is stories about people claiming to be trans, entering public bathrooms, then masturbating. What's stopping them from doing this, make it illegal to masturbate in a bathroom?
http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/may/9/abuse-victims-speak-transgender-bathroom-laws/?page=all
Here's a story for you, and the reason you can't find others is because no media outlet will cover them. Just like Microsoft, apple, and other big companies that are for this law and against NC still sell their products in countries where Trans people are executed. It's called a double standard outlander.

Actually, it does, I can have the opinion and feel unsafe about my own family being in the same bathroom as someone who might have come there to sexually assault, abuse, or masturbate to them. I have the right to vote against that law in my state, and I will do so. It's not about denying privilege, it's about keeping women safe.

“If you look and appear to me like a woman, and you come into the bathroom, I’m not going to question that. I don’t — use the bathroom of your choice,”

There's a direct quote from the article and video.

Here is a woman from birth, who is clearly a man, forced to use the Women's restroom.

Do you see where some of my issues in this lie?

Not to mention you didn't address my point on women raping other women, which, again, is statistically way more likely. And following your logic of, 'It's not about denying privilege, it's about keeping women safe.' why aren't you for banning women from women's restrooms as well?

 

[Prudence]

“If you look and appear to me like a woman, and you come into the bathroom, I’m not going to question that. I don’t — use the bathroom of your choice,”

There's a direct quote from the article and video.

Here is a woman from birth, who is clearly a man, forced to use the Women's restroom.

Do you see where some of my issues in this lie?

Not to mention you didn't address my point on women raping other women, which, again, is statistically way more likely. And following your logic of, 'It's not about denying privilege, it's about keeping women safe.' why aren't you for banning women from women's restrooms as well?

Because I'd go to say the rate of women who would peek through the mile wide crack in the stalls and then masturbate or rape is exponentially lower than that of males.

 

[Richie B.]

So basically what I am trying to say is their would be a influx or more people going to the restroom for non sexual reasons and which would cause less sexual assaults since those would require the victim to be isolated but if others come in the situation can be stopped and person who is assaulting the victim will more likely go to prison.

You can say more perverts will go to the female restrooms but I feel more actual transgender people will do that, which would make the place safer for your younger sister @Black Noise as there will be more people to take action against something like that happening.

 

[Outlander]

Because I'd go to say the rate of women who would peek through the mile wide crack in the stalls and then masturbate or rape is exponentially lower than that of males.

I'd ask for a citation on that, then.

 

[Black Noise]

Hey BN I think you're backwards.

Charlotte passed an ordinance legalizing this, and then NC Goverent struck it down with HB2. The current law is anti-trans restrooms.

Maybe, I'm tired.

“If you look and appear to me like a woman, and you come into the bathroom, I’m not going to question that. I don’t — use the bathroom of your choice,”

There's a direct quote from the article and video.

Here is a woman from birth, who is clearly a man, forced to use the Women's restroom.

Do you see where some of my issues in this lie?

Not to mention you didn't address my point on women raping other women, which, again, is statistically way more likely. And following your logic of, 'It's not about denying privilege, it's about keeping women safe.' why aren't you for banning women from women's restrooms as well?

Except those that look and appear like men who want to enter the women's restroom are also protected under the Trans law.

No, I don't, because you aren't stating them.

If you can prevent a woman from raping another woman in a bathroom, you would do so. By that same token, if I can prevent someone with a penis from raping a woman in a bathroom, I would do so. Your argument doesn't hold weight. And, by your ideal that anyone claiming trans is a woman, then yes I'm for banning these 'women' from women's restrooms.

 

[Outlander]

Except those that look and appear like men are also protected under the Trans law.

No, I don't, because you aren't stating them.

If you can prevent a woman from raping another woman in a bathroom, you would do so. By that same token, if I can prevent someone with a penis from raping a woman in a bathroom, I would do so. Your argument doesn't hold weight. And, by your ideal that anyone claiming trans is a woman, then yes I'm for banning these 'women' from women's restrooms.

What law are you referring to? Under this law, stated in the OP, transgender people in North Carolina would have to use the gender assigned at birth, meaning men like him would have to use the women's restroom.

I thought I was making my points fairly clear. I think it is not only discriminatory but avoiding actual issues to make a blanket law keeping transgendered people from using the restroom of their desired sex.

I mean, didn't you just defeat your own point there? Again, statistically, women would rape women in bathrooms more than men, meaning that a law keeping transgender women from using the female restroom would be avoiding the actually statistically significant issue.

 

[Prudence]

Regardless of your opinion, this is a disgusting over reach by the feds. Between them and big corporations / media they're trying to trash our economy for something that wasn't even up to popular vote.

 

[Black Noise]

What law are you referring to? Under this law, stated in the OP, transgender people in North Carolina would have to use the gender assigned at birth, meaning men like him would have to use the women's restroom.

I thought I was making my points fairly clear. I think it is not only discriminatory but avoiding actual issues to make a blanket law keeping transgendered people from using the restroom of their desired sex.

I mean, didn't you just defeat your own point there? Again, statistically, women would rape women in bathrooms more than men, meaning that a law keeping transgender women from using the female restroom would be avoiding the actually statistically significant issue.

Correction. I mean any place allowing people who claim to be trans.

I'm not against trans people, but until there's a way to stop people who are clearly using the law for their own benefit to hurt people, then I'm going to be against allowing those claiming trans in bathrooms of their choice. That's it.

No?

I think you misunderstand. I cannot stop a women from raping a woman in a bathroom.

But I can stop a person claiming to be trans from doing so by being for the so called 'anti trans' law.