United States Presidential Election, 2016

Padmé said:

He should be able to bring up his military career. Everyone has to start somewhere, and I hope you all don't discredit his opinions simply because he has no real war time combat days under his proverbial belt.

That's all.

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It's not that his service doesn't matter. It's that his military service doesn't matter in this debate. It doesn't make his opinion and more or less valid.

Padmé said:

He should be able to bring up his military career. Everyone has to start somewhere, and I hope you all don't discredit his opinions simply because he has no real war time combat days under his proverbial belt.

That's all.

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He has zero experience though. He has yet to proove he can handel 1 year of serves. Most people in the usa drop out in 1 year in south africa it is 2 but here we give you cash for staying 2 years. With out that drop out would be mostly in the first year.


The military is not for every one. It is not a failing on you for not making it. Very few drop out due to physically being unable to endure it.

Padmé said:

Before you throw rotten tomatoes at me, I'd just like to say that it's not an easy thing to be a conservative on this forum (especially this thread).

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I'm actually hardcore Marxist lol. Blame Prospero, really political classmates, and the "Jesus is socialist" ideology

Then again little in my political compass is constant besides DEMOCRATIC VALYOOS

Andrewza said:

He has zero experience though. He has yet to proove he can handel 1 year of serves. Most people in the usa drop out in 1 year in south africa it is 2 but here we give you cash for staying 2 years. With out that drop out would be mostly in the first year.


The military is not for every one. It is not a failing on you for not making it. Very few drop out due to physically being unable to endure it.

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dude

Andrewza said:

in south africa it is 2

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dude dude dude

Are you South African

Anyways I digress

but yeah like what the others said I don't see why being in the military should make a difference to this discussion, nor do I particularly appreciate the fact that Boss is implying that he is defending democracy as a whole through serving in the US army. Like, we gots democracy in the rest of the world too lol, and an Australian is perfectly entitled to talk about it.

Kudos in being in the Marine Corps.

Let's try to keep it civil. We've kinda gotten back on track, but let's keep this focused on the election and our stances in regards to the candidates/policies, and not personal attacks on each other. I expect this from Hillary and Trump, not here.

I'm afraid I'm gonna be begging for your good graces quick.

Could anyone give/link/smth me a TL;DR version of the election since the 3rd debate, or something? I've been pretty out of touch as of late cause of exams.

Jinan B said:

I'm afraid I'm gonna be begging for your good graces quick.

Could anyone give/link/smth me a TL;DR version of the election since the 3rd debate, or something? I've been pretty out of touch as of late cause of exams.

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Polls have continued moving in Clinton's favor. She has like a 90% chance of being elected at this point, so it's essentially a foregone conclusion. The Senate could go either way, but is trending towards Democratic control. The House will stay Republican.

Green Ranger said:

But seriously though, thanks for answering my question, because it means there's no point in me continuing to engage you. Your criticisms of Clinton are flimsy at best, desperately grasping at straws at the worst, and just plain lies in the juicy middle, yet you'll forgive Trump for quite literally everything he's said so far and will continue to do so regardless.

That's basket of deplorables style mentality. It also is massively toxic to democracy as a whole, because it enables candidates of utterly terrible quality to build a following and gain traction.

A fair few members in this discussion are of the opinion of 'how did we get to two candidates this terrible?' I don't agree with the sentiment entirely, but if you want better candidates, then you've got to root out the toxic, blind and ignorant support of this nature from the voting base, because this is exactly the kind of attitude that has allowed Trump to get this far.

tl;dr You are everything that's wrong with America.

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Let me explain myself further. First I'd like to apologize if I sounded harsh. It was the intention, as I was mad, but it was wrong. So sorry for that GreenRanger.

Second, I had a problem with you telling me that I'm what's wrong with America. Why did I have this problem? Its simple really, I didn't understand how an Australian, who doesn't even live in America, could tell me that. You preach and spout facts that you read and you formulate your opinions which is all good. But that's as close as you come to actually understanding the problem. As you don't have to experience them, first hand, as an American.

Third, let me explain the whole "Military" argument I made. The main reason I said that was based off of an emotional response. I am in the Marine Corps, granted as Loco was saying, it is only the Delayed Entry Program, and I'm not a Marine yet. But, it is something and most Americans don't even get that far. The reason I got upset was simple really, here I am on the path to serving America. And yet somehow I'm "what's wrong with America."

Bullshit.



Now that I've explained myself from my further post let me add on.

Padmé was right when she said its hard being a conservative on this forum. Why? Because people from the left, on this forum, usually are pretty loud and passionate with their beliefs. That's fair. However it becomes unfair when you attack them personally. Like the above comments made. I believe this is why many conservatives won't engage in these political discussions. It doesn't really effect me as much because I'm to stubborn and hardheaded and don't really give a damn what others think of me. However for most I believe they are scared to share their ideas simply because they don't want to be judged/attacked personally by their beliefs.

I believe that is bad for Democracy and I've seen it happen on this forum a multitude of times.

Mr.BossMan said:

Second, I had a problem with you telling me that I'm what's wrong with America. Why did I have this problem? Its simple really, I didn't understand how an Australian, who doesn't even live in America, could tell me that. You preach and spout facts that you read and you formulate your opinions which is all good. But that's as close as you come to actually understanding the problem. As you don't have to experience them, first hand, as an American.

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By this logic we shouldn't have any opinion or urge to intervene in Syria/Iraq/Fight ISIS because we don't have an actual understanding of the problem because we don't live in one of the Muslim nations where 98% of ISIS' victims are.

Rwandan Genocide? Sorry, we don't live there, why should we think badly about it just because we read something in the news? Boko Haram? Well, we're not Nigerian, so whatever. Maybe they're nice guys, who are we to judge just because we have a device sitting in our pockets that grants us instantaneous access to most of the collective knowledge of man?

Clayton said:

By this logic we shouldn't have any opinion or urge to intervene in Syria/Iraq/Fight ISIS because we don't have an actual understanding of the problem because we don't live in one of the Muslim nations where 98% of ISIS' victims are.

Rwandan Genocide? Sorry, we don't live there, why should we think badly about it just because we read something in the news? Boko Haram? Well, we're not Nigerian, so whatever. Maybe they're nice guys, who are we to judge just because we have a device sitting in our pockets that grants us instantaneous access to most of the collective knowledge of man?

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Your reaching.

What I said wasn't some statement meant to be taken on a global "logical" scale.

All I did was explain myself when I was told "Your what's wrong with America." And all for having a difference of opinion.

What I said wasn't meant to be taken as far as you took it and if it was; well the fault isn't on my end.

Mr.BossMan said:

Let me explain myself further. First I'd like to apologize if I sounded harsh. It was the intention, as I was mad, but it was wrong. So sorry for that GreenRanger.

Second, I had a problem with you telling me that I'm what's wrong with America. Why did I have this problem? Its simple really, I didn't understand how an Australian, who doesn't even live in America, could tell me that. You preach and spout facts that you read and you formulate your opinions which is all good. But that's as close as you come to actually understanding the problem. As you don't have to experience them, first hand, as an American.

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And that makes my point less valid, because, what, I did a bunch of research on the presidential campaign (because tbh that asshole bac sucked me into getting interested about politics and there's really shit all going on here at the moment because we're all holding our breaths waiting for the US election), but I lack anecdotal evidence? If you have a problem with that, then that's honestly on you because it's a weak attempt to try and invalidate my criticisms of your stance on Trump.

Third, let me explain the whole "Military" argument I made. The main reason I said that was based off of an emotional response. I am in the Marine Corps, granted as Loco was saying, it is only the Delayed Entry Program, and I'm not a Marine yet. But, it is something and most Americans don't even get that far. The reason I got upset was simple really, here I am on the path to serving America. And yet somehow I'm "what's wrong with America."

Bullshit.

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Like I said before, going into the armed forces doesn't mean I don't get to criticise your opinions. As Outlander said, it has no bearing on the argument at hand and has zero relevance to the argument. You're going into the Marine Corps? That's great, and I'm happy for you...but it doesn't have anything to do with what we're discussing here. I feel like you're trying to use the over-inflated sort of....hero worship that Americans seem to have towards their armed forces to leverage respect - it's the only reason I can think that you would bring it up, and it doesn't work so well on a non-American. Either that or it's just ego, but either way, these are your issues.

Now that I've explained myself from my further post let me add on.

Padmé was right when she said its hard being a conservative on this forum. Why? Because people from the left, on this forum, usually are pretty loud and passionate with their beliefs. That's fair. However it becomes unfair when you attack them personally. Like the above comments made. I believe this is why many conservatives won't engage in these political discussions. It doesn't really effect me as much because I'm to stubborn and hardheaded and don't really give a damn what others think of me. However for most I believe they are scared to share their ideas simply because they don't want to be judged/attacked personally by their beliefs.

I believe that is bad for Democracy and I've seen it happen on this forum a multitude of times.

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Okay, see, here's the thing. If you read back over the thread, there's two people that I've attacked personally because it was warranted - Aleksandr, because his homophobic, transphobic, pro-russian speel has zero basis in reality, and you, because you said that there was nothing Trump could possibly do that would make you not vote for him.

I am not attacking you for being conservative. I am attacking you for being blindly, stubbornly pro-Trump. I am attacking you because you have basically put your head in the sand and stopped actually paying attention to the debates, policies, issues and problems that the American people need to make decisions about this election. This is the kind of personality politics that is bad for America, because it doesn't engage or discuss the issues - instead the whole discussion so far basically revolved around how much you dislike Hillary as a person, rather than her policies or platform. I have the same issue with people who vote for Hillary because they don't like Trump, or because they've been offended by something he's said - they should absolutely be factors into determining who to vote for, for sure, because they indicate his position on immigration, on women's rights, on foreign relations, conflict resolution, diplomacy and overseas intervention. But when the debate becomes blind, stubborn, and completely devoid of any debate of policy platform, then it is exactly the kind of shallow thinking that had led us to this point where policies are basically irrelevant to a presidential campaign and rusted on voters aren't even actively considering the merits of both outcomes.

Maybe a kinder phrasing would have been 'Your attitude is representative of everything that is wrong with America when it comes to politics,' but the harsh truth is still there, and needs to be exposed for what it is. When voters bury their heads in the sand, or refuse to consider the alternative, or vote based on how much the like a candidate rather than how much they like the platform said candidate is running on, then everybody loses.

Mr.BossMan said:

Padmé was right when she said its hard being a conservative on this forum. Why? Because people from the left, on this forum, usually are pretty loud and passionate with their beliefs. That's fair. However it becomes unfair when you attack them personally. Like the above comments made. I believe this is why many conservatives won't engage in these political discussions. It doesn't really effect me as much because I'm to stubborn and hardheaded and don't really give a damn what others think of me. However for most I believe they are scared to share their ideas simply because they don't want to be judged/attacked personally by their beliefs.

I believe that is bad for Democracy and I've seen it happen on this forum a multitude of times.

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I can't really speak for any previous experience with regards to this as I often avoid political discussions altogether - be they on forums or at home/in the workplace, etc...

However, from what I've seen so far from this election as a whole (and as a sort of microcosm here on the site) is that there is something vastly different in holding or supporting conservative ideals based on an actual political position said ideals may espouse, versus upholding conservative viewpoints and supporting a Republican candidate just because "they aren't a politician" or "they're better than the alternative".

Neither of those statements carry much in the way of weight or reasoning when it comes to throwing one's lot in with the conservative viewpoint. Now if Trump had actually run his campaign on issues and presented actual political strategies and plans (that weren't just soundbites like "I'll kick ISIS in the ass" and "I'll build a wall and make Mexico pay for it."), then we might be having a different discussion. But just proclaiming blind support for a candidate simply because "they aren't the other guy" is absurd, and the only real reason Trump has come as far as he has in this election.

As it is now, Republicans have almost unanimously surrendered any prospects of gaining the White House, and the more savvy among them are actively trying to distance themselves from Trump in the hopes of retaining their positions in later elections. But you know they have to share a good deal of the blame in all of this as well because of this insane notion among the GOP that they are somehow obligated to maintain lockstep with "party lines". Plenty of influential Republicans who didn't agree with Trump as their nominee could have said "no, I won't support him." But they didn't.

And now here we are, a scarce two weeks from the most important election for our nation, and the best defense the Trump camp can offer for supporting him is "at least he's not Hillary".

Sad days.

First off I'm not blindly supporting Trump. I said, at this point, I'm not going to not vote for him. Regardless of what he's said and been accused of doing. However that doesn't mean I liked what he said, he's a jackass for saying some things, but regardless imma still vote for him.

Now you ask me why? Well my answer was simple, I said, "Because he's better than the alternative."

Now you guys took that all to mean I'm just an ignorant Trump supporter blindly clinging on to my hatred of Hillary. Willing to follow Trump as if he's a shepered and I his sheep.

Let me elaborate more on why I'm voting for Trump. In most regards I will admit that mainly it is because I don't like Hillary. Do I believe she is crooked? Certainly I do. I believe the woman is a failure, I believe she is a liar and I believe she will do and say anything to get elected.

But it is further than that. I do not like her policies at all:
1. She supports Obama care
2. She's going to increase foreign refugees coming into the United States by 550% more than Obama has done
3. She supports BlackLivesMatter
4. She believes in a Gender Wage Gap
5. She's going to Increase the Federal minimum wage

Now why do I like Trump?
1. Immigration. If your illegal then you shouldn't be here, plain and simple.
2. Tax cuts, major tax cuts for the wealthy and hopefully this provides jobs for the middle class workers.
3. I trust in his Supreme Court Justices that he has named and believe that they will uphold the constitution.

4ish Also if Trump becomes president then this country can start moving forward under Republican control. Having Congress under Republican leadership would be great but also having a President which will also be Republican and (here's hoping) a Senate as well this country can finally start moving forward in a positive direction.

Mr.BossMan said:

First off I'm not blindly supporting Trump. I said, at this point, I'm not going to not vote for him. Regardless of what he's said and been accused of doing. However that doesn't mean I liked what he said, he's a jackass for saying some things, but regardless imma still vote for him.

Now you ask me why? Well my answer was simple, I said, "Because he's better than the alternative."

Now you guys took that all to mean I'm just an ignorant Trump supporter blindly clinging on to my hatred of Hillary. Willing to follow Trump as if he's a shepered and I his sheep.

Let me elaborate more on why I'm voting for Trump. In most regards I will admit that mainly it is because I don't like Hillary. Do I believe she is crooked? Certainly I do. I believe the woman is a failure, I believe she is a liar and I believe she will do and say anything to get elected.

But it is further than that. I do not like her policies at all:
1. She supports Obama care
2. She's going to increase foreign refugees coming into the United States by 550% more than Obama has done
3. She supports BlackLivesMatter
4. She believes in a Gender Wage Gap
5. She's going to Increase the Federal minimum wage

Now why do I like Trump?
1. Immigration. If your illegal then you shouldn't be here, plain and simple.
2. Tax cuts, major tax cuts for the wealthy and hopefully this provides jobs for the middle class workers.
3. I trust in his Supreme Court Justices that he has named and believe that they will uphold the constitution.

4ish Also if Trump becomes president then this country can start moving forward under Republican control. Having Congress under Republican leadership would be great but also having a President which will also be Republican and (here's hoping) a Senate as well this country can finally start moving forward in a positive direction.

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I disagree with essentially all of your political beliefs.

I'm not going to contest much here, but Bush was 8 years of old school Republican control.

Not that it matters, both parties are different flavors of neocon.

Mr.BossMan said:

First off I'm not blindly supporting Trump. I said, at this point, I'm not going to not vote for him. Regardless of what he's said and been accused of doing. However that doesn't mean I liked what he said, he's a jackass for saying some things, but regardless imma still vote for him.

Now you ask me why? Well my answer was simple, I said, "Because he's better than the alternative."

Now you guys took that all to mean I'm just an ignorant Trump supporter blindly clinging on to my hatred of Hillary. Willing to follow Trump as if he's a shepered and I his sheep.

Let me elaborate more on why I'm voting for Trump. In most regards I will admit that mainly it is because I don't like Hillary. Do I believe she is crooked? Certainly I do. I believe the woman is a failure, I believe she is a liar and I believe she will do and say anything to get elected.

But it is further than that. I do not like her policies at all:
1. She supports Obama care
2. She's going to increase foreign refugees coming into the United States by 550% more than Obama has done
3. She supports BlackLivesMatter
4. She believes in a Gender Wage Gap
5. She's going to Increase the Federal minimum wage

Now why do I like Trump?
1. Immigration. If your illegal then you shouldn't be here, plain and simple.
2. Tax cuts, major tax cuts for the wealthy and hopefully this provides jobs for the middle class workers.
3. I trust in his Supreme Court Justices that he has named and believe that they will uphold the constitution.

4ish Also if Trump becomes president then this country can start moving forward under Republican control. Having Congress under Republican leadership would be great but also having a President which will also be Republican and (here's hoping) a Senate as well this country can finally start moving forward in a positive direction.

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OK, so. Lemme address each of your points:
1. Most other developed countries already have universal healthcare. We're lacking far behind in this area, with our inane medical insurance industry acting as a complete monetary vacuum for american citizens. Most of the issues with ObamaCare where due to compromises he had to make across the party line to Republican representatives to have it passed at all.

2. Yes, and? Statistically, immigrants are far less likely to commit crimes, any crimes, than people born in the states, and most, if not all, of the recent terror attacks on U.S. soil where caused by homegrown extremist, not immigrants or refugees.

3. We got into this once, and I refuse to open that can of worms for a second time.

4. The wage gap is a thing. While the reasons for it existing are up for debate, it DOES exist.

5. While I can see where your disagreement with this stems from, I think increasing the minimum wage some would be a good thing. Not a ton, since that would cause some massive issues in the service industry, but some.

Now onto Trump:
1. Ok, if you don't want to look at any of the underlying issues that cause illegal immigration, such as our broken immigration system and our basic destruction of the migrant worker system, then I can see why you'd say that. But what about children born here? Are you really going to say we, as a nation, will separate children from their parents because they weren't born here? My mom teaches ESL children, many of whom are born from parents who are here illegally, and we have seen first hand how horrifying that can be, and, as a somewhat moral human being, cannot accept that.

2. Oh, you mean tax cuts he could then use to make himself more wealthy? The man is giving his company to his kids, not in a blind trust like every other president with conflicts of interest has, so I can trust basically nothing he says that could advance his own wealth. Not to mention that II think Reaganomics is bullshit.

3. Personally, I like being more progressive as a nation than less. Let's be real here; we're voting on the president that will be appointing up to three new Supreme Court Justices, which could shift things like Gay and Trans rights in this country for the better or the worse. And i'm going to go with the person who i'm sure won't put people on there who might repeal Roe vs. Wade or the recent ruling on Gay marriage. I'm finally starting to like where this country is heading, and i'd prefer it not be ruined.

4. Not gonna deal with this one. I could say the same thing about the democratic party, but I like to think I respect my friends and colleagues on the other side enough not to.

Mr.BossMan said:

First off I'm not blindly supporting Trump. I said, at this point, I'm not going to not vote for him. Regardless of what he's said and been accused of doing. However that doesn't mean I liked what he said, he's a jackass for saying some things, but regardless imma still vote for him.

Now you ask me why? Well my answer was simple, I said, "Because he's better than the alternative."

Now you guys took that all to mean I'm just an ignorant Trump supporter blindly clinging on to my hatred of Hillary. Willing to follow Trump as if he's a shepered and I his sheep.

Let me elaborate more on why I'm voting for Trump. In most regards I will admit that mainly it is because I don't like Hillary. Do I believe she is crooked? Certainly I do. I believe the woman is a failure, I believe she is a liar and I believe she will do and say anything to get elected.

But it is further than that. I do not like her policies at all:
1. She supports Obama care
2. She's going to increase foreign refugees coming into the United States by 550% more than Obama has done
3. She supports BlackLivesMatter
4. She believes in a Gender Wage Gap
5. She's going to Increase the Federal minimum wage

Now why do I like Trump?
1. Immigration. If your illegal then you shouldn't be here, plain and simple.
2. Tax cuts, major tax cuts for the wealthy and hopefully this provides jobs for the middle class workers.
3. I trust in his Supreme Court Justices that he has named and believe that they will uphold the constitution.

4ish Also if Trump becomes president then this country can start moving forward under Republican control. Having Congress under Republican leadership would be great but also having a President which will also be Republican and (here's hoping) a Senate as well this country can finally start moving forward in a positive direction.

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I have to say that I don't see the difference between blindly supporting Trump and voting for Trump regardless of whether you agree with him or not regardless of what he does.

Also could you elaborate about why the support of blacklivesmatter is a point against Hillary, I'd be quite interested in hearing that.

Just a short interjection. A wage gap does not exist. There are no credible economists that support the wage gap. There is something called an earnings gap though. You ought to learn the difference between the two words wage and earnings.

Did early voting for Hillary yesterday, and video related is how I feel. I was actually open to Trump until the second and third debates, him completely dodging questions on the economy was just too much for me. That and shilling for Putin. It still feels like I elected a Sith Lord to the presidency, but I just couldn't justify Trump policy wise.

I REFUSE to participate in this embarrassing sham circus of an election. I will not sully myself with a vote in favor of either of these jackasses.

I'll let the country choose the form of the Destructor.