War Crimes

[Alton Hawkes]

The first vote session for the new Republic, Alton Hawkes isn't here representing Chandrila. No, he's here as Vice Chancellor. Alton never thought he'd get such a position, especially not so soon. He's not very experienced in politics, but still he'll take his newfound job seriously and do his best. It's an important position and eyes are upon on him and so he aims to rise to the occasion. This is also broadcasted on the holonet too, putting even more pressure on the young man.

With the senate assembled for today, Alton Hawkes would be standing on top of the middle platform it's on the right side, the middle reserved for the Chancellor, and the left side reserved for the Secretary of Defense.

Before the session would start Alton would look around and hear lots of commotion from the senators of the Republic's member worlds. Even a fledgling republic still has countless worlds under it's symbol. The senators were most likely conversing with each other, their staff about this first session. The Vice Chancellor would clear his throat.

It is time.

"Order! Order!" Alton, aided with a microphone on his person, his Core Worlds accented voice would boom through the chambers as his normal easy expression would be stern instead. His words would hush the other senators so they can all get started now that the attention is towards the middle platform. As Vice Chair, it's his job to maintain order in the senate.

As Speaker of the Senate, he would open up this session with a statement. "Welcome to the first session of Senate since the re-founding of our Republic." Brief pause. "We're going to vote on an issue that needs to be addressed. First and foremost, the prosecution of certain individuals who have committed horrific crimes during the war, including the which sparked the war in the first place, giving the final order to fire." which everyone in attendance knows it means Medriaas, where it all began. A brief pause before Alton would continue "And then another issue regarding the Imperials Remnants in our borders."

Before they would dive in this, Alton would look towards the Chancellor "Before we get started, a word from our Chancellor." he would leave the floor to her, eager for statement for this historic session of Senate.

OOC:
For Senate Characters: Feel free to post here to get in you starting positions, but let the Chancellor speak first, then I'll get us started with the discussion afterwards.

Everyone else: Open to reacts only.

Spoiler: Senate Tags

@Nommie @Pyrenees @Sreeya @Ecclessey @Insalius @Phoenix

 

[Regis]

Regis took his place in the Senate and waited for the hearing to start. His aide handed him a packet that summarized the expected progression of the day's events, and his eyes scanned briefly over the brief. War crimes was an interesting and contentious topic. He wondered how many of the Republic worlds had been complicit in the Empire's crimes, and he wondered if the fledgling government could survive what might turn into a witch hunt if they wanted to punish their own worlds.

Of course, there was the chance that it would all be completely above-board with no one pursuing their own ends or trying to advance political agendas, but Regis wasn't that naive. He did want justice to be served. There was always an angle to be played, and he was going to take it upon himself to find it.

A cup of caf was waiting in his pod as he took a seat, and he sipped it as he watched the other Senators file in. It was the first official meeting of the Senate in its new building, and for the first time it all seemed much more real. This wasn't a government that was going to be swept aside by either crusading Sith or Mandalorians, but an organized group that had the chance of standing strong with the combined planetary forces.

As the declarations of the Vice Chancellor began, Regis only half-listened. It wasn't that he didn't care what the man said, but the opening speeches were usually lacking in meat. His attention was instead drawn to the docket as he read about the potential topics that his analysts had noted down. Medriaas, glassings, and political prisoners among them. Oh, this should be interesting indeed, he thought to himself.

 

[Keira Zale]

Keira was already in her designated seat in between the Secretary of Defense and the Vice Chancellor. As she looked out towards the row of senate pods, she couldn’t believe how far they had come in such a short period of time. She had recently appointed the two that she would count on very heavily as her Vice Chancellor as the SecDef, and she knew they would see things through.

After the Vice Chancellor finished speaking, Keira rose to stand, smiling out at everyone, “I will try to keep this short so we can cut to the chase,” She began, “First and foremost, I want to thank you all for supporting me and the idea of a new Republic. I wanted to inform you all that we have already taken steps to formalize a military force that’s comprised of the combined might of all our planets.”

Having a military was truly a milestone, and it would be the first steps towards becoming a force in the galaxy, “Some of you may be wondering about where we stand as a faction. As of now, we want to maintain our neutrality as much as possible. We have been involved in some joint operations with the Mandalorians, but we are not actively pursuing an alliance at this point.”

Keira paused for a moment, “There is also the matter of Jedi. I know many of you have several questions on where we stand with them. As of now, it is believed that it is far too risky to take up the offer to have the Jedi become a part of the Republic. If there are disagreements on that, I welcome you to please bring it up as a vote in the near future.”

She looked around and smiled once more, “With that out of the way, let us proceed with the items on the docket for today,” She took a seat once more, as this was the Vice Chancellor’s show now.

@Faster Than Light

 

[Valiance Waszylla]

Wow, this was all certainly a step up from what Valiance was used to. In the United Protectorate things had been fairly normal in terms of scale of their meeting areas and other offices and such. This was...quite something. He'd been to Alderaan before, yet for some reason this just felt so much larger than life. Hew as just a librarian from Obroa-skai, when he had taken the job of being Senator he hadn't thought he would have helped recreate the Republic, yet now here he was. It was a humbling experience and he was proud to have been a part of history in the making. Some days, though, he just wanted to be back in his library reading some books he hadn't quite gotten to yet. Those didn't have the threat of impending war if he didn't negotiate in quite the right way.

As he read the docket for this session, the normally jovial Senator frowned slightly. It wasn't that he disagreed with anything they were doing, far from it. He just lamented that such things like war crimes even had to happen in the first place for them to preside over and judge. In his heart he really wanted the galaxy to finally see eye to eye, or at least accept each other's views, and for peace to fall over them all. He knew that was a naive dream, that kind of galaxy could never happen if they all had free will, but it was a thing he could write about one day. A good fiction novel to give an escape to people if things got bleak. That was all for another time, though, as he looked up as the Chancellor and Vice Chancellor spoke. Now was the time for business.

 

[Olga Veik]

On one of the smaller platforms, a Devaronian in a dark gray suit sat by herself. Her face was like that of a stone as she watched the proceedings commence. Beneath that neutral expression Olga Veik was both nervous and thrilled at the same time. This was history in the making no doubt of that.

Never in my dreams did I believe I would live to see this day. A future being made by us. Without the Sith hanging over our heads.

For a moment Olga had to suppress a smile. Being from what many would consider a minor world in the grand schemes of things the former activist was not going to feed stereotypes against her own homeworld if it can be helped.

Of course the new senator did spare a glance all over the assembly. Quite the crowd. She would admit but now many of them were truly committed to the Republic was a serious question in her view. For a moment her eyes narrowed with mistrust especially toward those from the Core Worlds.

How many Imperialists and profiteers are hiding in our midst I wonder?

Deciding to think on it some other time Olga Veik instead listen to the speeches by both the Vice Chancellor and his superior. Raising an eyebrow of annoyance at the mention of the Jedi she quietly murmured to herself. “I don’t care about some distant monks. They has no relevance to this hearing.”

Indeed the subject of war crimes was of personal importance to her. The Sith and their supporters had brought death and suffering even before the war officially started. Olga’s right arm twitched in reaction and she bit her lip from old wounds that lingered all these years. The Empire was dead but it’s legacy lives on and must be dealt with. She squeezed both hands on her lap in silent determination.

 

[Alton Hawkes]

Alton went back and forth between looking towards the Chancellor as she spoke, and glanced across the senate chambers observing people's reactions. The young Vice Chancellor would stand with her stance, it's a rational one. Focus on rebuilding and securing it's future; and then while neutrality and no alliances with no factions, still building with no factions still building relations with the Mandalorians.

"Thank you, Your Excellency" he nodded his head as he would begin to look forward once again, now ready to begin to drive into the heart of this matter. A deep breath and he would speak, his voice echoing through the chambers as they go into the first topic of discussion for this senate. "Ladies and gentlemen. Even though the Republic is young, I feel it is our responsibility to ensure that justice is served for the countless billions have lost their lives for this war and many more who suffered." he would pause as he looks around to gauge reactions. "We can't bring back those who are lost and can't undo the pain caused, but we can move forward and show that we will not abide these atrocities ."

With that, past the dramatics, the idealistic young man would then delve into it, relaxing his shoulders. The next question for anyone watching this would be 'how?' Alton would imagine. How could the Republic serve justice? Alton is getting on it. "We've inherited a wealth of information from databases from Imperial Republica and Imperial Intelligence records. We can know what exactly happened and and where, and who the person responsible is." he nodded his head. There are lots of things left-over from the remnants of the Empire with-in the Republic's borders. Things like military hardware, and information is just as good. Knowledge is power after all.

"For example..." Alton would push a few buttons in front of him on the senate platform and then a large hologram of an older Imperial officer would appear, everyone in the senate chambers could see it well. After a brief pause he would resume "This is Admiral Corran Varik, he was in command of the Republica fleet above Medriaas when it happened. It was at his final order that the whole planet was bombarded, killing many." Alton would frown. "Emperor Elix was disposed of years ago, but Admiral Varik can and should still be held accountable for this atrocity, as do many others." he nodded his head in approval of his own words.

Now, where the discussion is expected to pick up for the other senators in attendance. "Now, what I'm proposing is that these war criminals, Imperial and Sith alike have bounties placed on them. Not bounties for calling for death, but bounties for their capture only. And when captured and turned into our hands, they would be given a trial, with due process and under rule of law." He said. Alton couldn't possibly get behind death bounties, but that should be enough

The Vice Chancellor would then gesture his hand forward towards the senate "With that, I leave the floor to questions and discussion" he would end there for now. He would look around, he's ready for resistance to his proposal if need be. This could be a hot topic and the talk of bounties could make it more interesting. He will see how this goes.

OOC: The floor is open to discussion, lets stay on topic.

Spoiler: Senate Tags

@Nommie @Pyrenees @Sreeya @Ecclessey @Insalius @Phoenix @Minuteman75

 

[Alema Torr]

Even though she usually watched senate sessions when they were re-played at the end of the working day, it seemed like every member of the officer corps on Conver Station had left their posts to see the holo live. The mess hall was packed to the brim, so she sat huddled around a portable holoprojector with at least 20 other commissioned spacemen just outside. As the word came down from the Senate, the whole place echoed with a cacaphony of whispers. Many of the older officers had been Imperial holdovers. Who was going to be on the list? Some people asked it openly. "What about Corellia?" "Wasn't he our commander during the Hydian Blockade?" Others whispered among themselves discontentedly, or hopefully, for the purge.

Alema was of mixed feelings. She understood that the Empire had committed war crimes, and she reviled them for the way they ruled the galaxy, but she wondered what would become of the Navy if this door was opened up. There would be many vacancies in the coming months as high-level accomplices broke ranks and fled into the shadows. Would the right kind of people replace them? Even now she could see ashen-faced Commanders talking in hushed tones as they left the mess.

Regardless of who was fingered by the courts as guilty, it could shake up the hierarchy more than the Empire's dissolution did. That meant even more opportunities for an ambitious officer like herself, but also left open the same doors to unscrupulous and equally vile soldiers who hadn't been prominent enough to deserve a war crimes tribunal. At the very least she hadn't been an Imperial soldier, so the scrabble to find blame among lower-ranking officers wouldn't touch her.

It would be interesting to see this play out as long as she could keep a safe distance.

 

[Jurya Kelborn]

From her modest personal apartment, Jurya kept up half an ear, listening in between deep breathing exercises, pausing when the Holonet announced the Senate for its' first vote, turning up the volume subtly. Alderaan. An interesting place to visit, she supposed, but as the formalities were underway, she made sure to take note of every face that appeared in the camera pan from the Chancellor to the Vice-Chancellor. A few faces were missing, but that would soon change in the face of this topic of conversation.

War crimes, eh?

Funny how broad a term that was... her fists clenched into the soft fabric of her tunic, eyes narrowing. But she knew exactly what they meant, and all those implications.

She was all too aware of war crimes. Her people, or at least the people Hapans were allied to, were all too keenly aware of the gross injustices involving the Empire, and the Imperial Republica. Her own people were not innocent, but their rage was justified. She exhaled slowly, releasing her hands.

Distaste warred with irrational anger flickered to life, leaving a sour taste in her mouth. She inhaled and exhaled once more. From her peripheral vision she saw Mira shuffling forward, a tray in her hands. On the tray set a steaming mug of caf. Without breaking her focus from the screen, she lifted the mug and took a small sip.

She could take a break for now. She took another small sip, savoring the warmth and the bitterness of the brew. This was a far better activity than any breathing exercise anyday. The remote clicked the volume a few notches louder, settling back into her couch with a smile. Now to hear what the other senators had to say.

 

[Braun Stoker]

It was just after their session of training, when the holoprojector kicked on. He had just finished showering, and his BDU non-combative outfit was totally different from usual armored suit. He had been hoping to catch some shut eye before their movement to the their next assignment. The men of the platoon suddenly started flooding into their living space with some tone of excitement. "The senate is in session, I wonder what sort of matter their going to address" one of the troopers muttered to his compatriot as he passed by Braun's bunk. He found himself curious, wondering what the Senate could be ruling on. The Holo projector within the small living space kicked on as soldiers watched the recording with anticipation.

He was first greeted by a welcoming address by Senator Hawkins. Braun had been out of the political loop, as he now looked upon the Vice-Chancellor of the entire republic. He felt a swelling of excitement at this news. There was no better fit senator for the job than Alton Hawkes. He dried his wet hair with a plain towel as the chancellor now spoke, expressing the desires of the Republic. He listened quietly as democracy had succeeded this day, it would seem. Braun was pleased that he had defected to the Republic and became part of the great machine that would lead to liberty and justice throughout the galaxy. Maybe one day, he might even be able to return home. What a thought!

It was when Vice Chancellor Hawkes spoke again that caused his heart to stop. He spoke about trying war criminals, giving an example of a man Braun had known during the Imperial rule. He had seen him during the battle of Corellia, which he had personally fought in. The room was silent, as other began to realize the weight behind this statement. If they decided to try one war criminal, what would stop them from going down to the lowest soldier. Braun had fought for the empire, not knowing the horrors they had been enacting under the Sith. He could easily see himself being the target of such tribunals under the right conditions. War crimes could be defined as even something like being part of a battle or raid that had resulted in the loss of civilian life. Braun was glad that he had a towel, becuase otherwise his sweat might have seemed out of place. He could tell that this was a piviotal moment in the galaxy, one that could result in his execution or imprisionment possibly...

He tried to remain calm, as he thought that whatever came next was beyond his control. He would just do his best for the Republic and would accept whatever came his way. He prayed silently for those like himself, that had once served the old empire.

 

[Muith Chekaik]

Muith was curious as to what the subject of this session is going to be. For sure there is alot that needs to be done. But the question isnwhere is all of it going to start?

The Neimodian remained seated, his fingers ligjtly tapping on his padd that rested on his lap as he waited for the session to begin. Of which in no time it did begin.

With the session beginning with the opening remarks of Alton, Keira and Valliance. The aging Senator carefully took notes on his padd as the remarks were made. Though Muith is unsure as to which way he will lean.

Though of course he supports the move to gather Imperials and Sith alike to put them on trial for their crimes.

But there is one thing that bugged the Neimodian in regards to what Keira stated. He will most likely have to address that at another time. Not know since it is the topic of war crimes that is the focus right now. Still he took note of it.

But as he took notes there was one thing that popped into his mind that he felt must be addressed. Something that the others may miss.

Taking a stand the Neimodian Senator waited for the room to become silent. Looking to Alton he will begin, "While I agree with the motion to bring Imperials and Sith to trial. The actions of Admiral Varik is indeed a war crime." The old senator paused, "One does not need to do exactly what the Admiral had done to be a war criminal. There are different things that can be done to be a war criminal." Another pause, "But I do not think that soldiers who were meerly present on a battlefield where civilian casualties occured as a result of a battle should be charged.. Since those losses were not of the soldiers directly targeting civilians. As I am sure most of those casualties were accidental and the soldiers feel remorse for what they did. Those men and women should not be charged." The Neimodian glanced around for a moment, "So. I will ask. What exactly will we define as a war crime? Will being present on a battlefield or accidentally shooting a civilian during a battle be enough to condem a soldier with a war crime charge? Or will it only be those that purposely commited an act that will be charged?" Muith ended his little speech with, "Because as of right now. Anything can be labeled as a war crime."

 

[Olga Veik]

Crossing both arms over chest the Senator from Mindor watched the session go on. Olga scowled at the hologram of Admiral Corran Varik, once the Medriaas genocide was brought up. I imagine the scum will excuse his role in that massacre as just following orders. Just thinking about it makes me want to vomit.

As far as Olga was concerned every breath Admiral Varik takes is mercy compared to what he deserved. Same to all those willingly carried out similar crimes. My greatest concern right now is the Republic is just going to give those Sith lovers just a slap on the wrist or actually bring them to justice. She shook her head, refusing to accept the very notion.

When the Neimoidian Senator spoke up, Olga looked to his direction. A surprising sentiment from a non human she admitted. However, when Muith suggested most of the deaths caused by the Imperials in the war were accidental her eyes blazed with silent outrage

Slowly her lips revealed sharp teeth as she fought internally to control herself. The Devaronion will not stay silent at such a statement. Without hesitation Olga rose up from her seat. Turning on the audio the red woman spoke in a civil enough tone.

“I agree that crimes like Medriaas are unforgivable and must be judged. At the same time I strongly object to the notion that most of the deaths caused by Imperial forces throughout this war were done accidental.”

Soon the audience will hear Olga’s voice turned cold.

“If you all want another example of a war crime I’ll give one. The Imperial system of forced labor itself. Where millions of captives were imprisoned across the Sith Empire. They were tortured, starved and murdered for years without any ounce of compassion. All to toil for the damned Sith and enrich the pockets of Imperialists. Mass enslavement is certainly no accident!”

Subsequently Senator Veik folded up the sleeve of her right arm before raising the now bare limb front of a floating holocam. Viewers would note on the arm were the numbers 72521 permanently seared into the flesh. Anyone with common sense would realize that is an ID for a labor prisoner.

Turning to Alton Hawkes, she asked. “Vice Chancellor my question is will the officers who ran the labor camp system supported by their guards be held accountable as well?”

 

[Alton Hawkes]

Alton listened to the senator of Neimoidia speak. He voiced his support for the punishing of war criminals, especially the punishing of especially Varik. He also had a good point though about mere grunts and civilian casualties in war. At the end of they day, they were forced into what they are doing at the point of a lightsaber or be choked or fried to death with lightning. He also had a good point about clarifying what constitute as a 'War Crime' or 'War Criminal', which he was about to get to...

... Until the Senator of Mindor started speaking who told everyone about the pain of the Imperial force labor system and even had numbers on her arm to show for it. Although her vocie turned cold, it had a cold fury to it, especially her slight dig towards the Neimoidian who thought he suggested that war crimes were on accident.

The Vice Chancellor now that the floor is to him, would then proceed to answer the questions, first for the Neimodian senator. "War Crimes would be defined as repugnant acts during the war such as but not limited to: deliberate attacks against civilians/non-combatants mass murder of civilians, genocide, gross mistreatment of prisoners of war, biological/chemical warfare, and et cetera" he said to clarify for the Neimoida senator's question. Although he's able to expand on it more if needed, but for the most part should satisfy his question.

Now it comes for the Mindor senator's question. That's going to be harder to navigate without offending her or anyone else in similar situations. Or maybe impossible since it's obvious how pained the Devaronion woman is about this subject. That beside said, he still has to answer the question. Speaking calmly in an apoglogetic tone "I'm sorry for what happened to you, truly." Then his tone would become more stern "The forced labor system has been standard practice in the Empire long before the war. This session is about about war crimes. The possibility for taking action exists on that matter, but that's another topic to be discussed." Unfortunately for Olga, only one topci at a time in the fledgling Republic's senate, and crimes against sentient life in general would need it's own session, as the point of this is holding war criminals who escalated the war to horrific levels accountable and see the light of justice. The Vice Chair would be looking at the Devaronion and watch for her reactions. Alton is prepared to keep order in the senate if need be.

@Minuteman75 @Nommie

OOC: Still open to discussion and question from other senators. If nothing further a vote will be called.

 

[Alton Hawkes]

The Vice Chair heard some murmuring in the senate chambers, but nobody was speaking up. No questions or anything. This is seems like an open-and-shut kind of thing where there is not much to discuss as the topic isn't really divisive and really straight forward. Personally Alton would be ashamed of whoever would be against this.

With having plenty of time for additional discussion, Alton would get the vote started. "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Senate, with nothing further; the voting will begin now. Should the Republic take these measures to prosecute these war criminals at large by posting bounties on them for their capture so that they may be turned in and face trial for their actions? Or no?" he said.

With that, the vote is now started. All they have to do is push a button to vote. Either for 'Yay' or 'Nay'.

@Phoenix @Insalius @Nommie @Minuteman75

OOC: Voting will conclude in 24 hours from this post.

 

[Valiance Waszylla]

There were no questions from the Senator of Obroa-skai, mainly because he had been fortunate his planet had been spared most of the ravages of what these insidious people had done. Perhaps that was the boon of being known as a library planet, people with heated blood tended to stay away as it as boring, or had no value for what they were trying to accomplish. Valiance knew that the peace that he had lived in along with those on his planet was the result of luck and circumstance, which meant that anything he said before the vote would be out of place for him. Others had suffered far more than he had, so to speak before them and make it seem like such a larger issue for him than it truly was would have potentially been an insult. However, now was the time for voting, and he DID have some words to say.

"I'm going to be honest, my planet and I have been very lucky to have not been the victim of the kinds of terror and anguish these criminals have brought upon others. However, as much as I can, I feel for the pain of those who HAVE come under the guns of these murderers and those who willingly followed their orders despite knowing the horror of what they were doing. I only wish I could do more to help try to heal the pain they have caused. To that end, I will do what IS within my power and vote 'Yay' for this measure. Let the coming of this Republic herald in a time when law and order is able to deal with the problems of this galaxy." He'd been thinking of this speech for a while now, basically through the entire discussion up to this point. He hadn't just been daydreaming again. Well, maybe a little. Old habits died hard. Still, he hoped he sounded the part of the venerable elder of a Senator.

@Faster Than Light

 

[Regis]

Regis had listened to the various senators who had spoken up, but had little to add to the conversation himself. He had no issues with the Republic setting bounties on those who had fled from justice. Bounties were an unusual law enforcement tool, and one that had was contentious on many worlds. Bounty hunters were seen by some to be great heroes and by others as great criminals.

Arkania votes yay, he said. Though, it might be worth considering an organized, centralized force for hunting criminals like this in the future, he suggested. Bounty hunting that was done by organizations like the Guild were better, but other amateur hunters could make things messy and sloppy. He wasn't sure the Republic wanted to make that association in the long run.

 

[Muith Chekaik]

Muith was satisfied with the response from Alton. So the Neimoidian said no more on the subject, choosing to take a seat so that others may speak if they choose to.

But it appeared that instead it was going to go straight to a vote. Taking a stand he waited for Valliance and Regis to speak and cast their votes.

When the two of them were done. Then Muith took his turn, "Neimoidia votesYay.." He will then add, "I agree with the suggestion of an centralized, organized force to track down and capture these criminals." He will then once again take a seat, placing his padd on his lap.

 

[Orys Kelborn]

Sitting in the corner of a densely packed cantina, Orys enjoyed a fair sized glass of Corellian brandy. The cantina was dimly lit making it hard to recognize the dozens of faces moving around but a few words of gossip stood out to him at a nearby table. A small group of men spoke about the very first voting session between senators of the newly reformed Republic. So far his week long stay in Carida had been a dull and uneventful venture but it seemed there was some information to be gained after all. Suddenly a holoprojector on the nearby table whirred to life and a hazy blue image of the senate came to life. Orys leaned in closer to the table brandy still in hand, he had to hear this. He missed the very beginning of the session but managed to overhear everything about Corran Varik and onward.

"Go on you pompous shits. Vote yay" he muttered to himself. Work had been slow for him recently and bounties on war criminals meant fat pockets in the near future for the Mandalorian. Quickly sucking down the remainder of his brandy Orys gathered his things and moved to sit at the table the holoprojector was at. The other men eyed him suspiciously but returned their attention to the holoprojector as senators made their votes.​

 

[Alton Hawkes]

Alton thought that was a very good suggestion by the Senator of Arkania. The Vice Chancellor figuratively tapped his head wondering why he didn't think of that. Oops. Oh well.

Alton would then speak with a stern voice and expression "Senators, the voting is concluded." he announced to the senate and to everyone watching over the Holonet. No more votes from this point on. Alton with a push of a view more buttons, could see the results. And the results are clear. 'Yay' passes overwhelmingly. "The vote passes Bounties for war criminals at large will be posted tomorrow." he nodded his head as he gazed over the senate.

"This concludes this session of senate. Thank you all for coming."

And there were the final words, senators are now dismissed. This will be the first of many votes in the newfound democracy as the Republic moves forward. It's still hardly believable, but the winds of change have blown..

/end thread