'State of the RP' feedback thread

[Berlioz]

The thing about PvP is that really you don't have to participate unless you want to. That being said, if you put yourself into a position of importance (Darth, Supreme Commander, Dark Lord, Jedi General) then you should expect PvP, because those are high profile positions. But if you don't want PvP you don't have to, it comes with it the caveat that you may not be able to have as many prestigious positions. The problems with 100% consensual PvP is that no one would lose if they didn't have to. The Republic would indefinitely say "not now" to any battles I tried to start against them, anyone that's ambushed would say "no thanks" to the ensuing fight, etc. And as such, nothing would happen.

At the end of the day, it's a writing forum, not a battlefield. Like I told you on Skype, you're looking at things from an Empirical Conquistador POV. You can't force people into doing things you they don't want to do, and in a writing context, doubly so. When it comes to "Consensual" PvP, I beg to differ. Most reasonable adults (to my knowledge, we all are) know the limits of their characters and can reasonably admit when they're taking a hit/losing. If this isn't the case, then you return to the OOC politics regarding PvP (which are inevitable in a writing context).

If people aren't having fun, they're not going to participate. Period. It isn't about conquering the other faction or player, it's about making a story with them that people can enjoy. If people aren't enjoying it, then they won't participate.

Which is currently happening.

 

[Sreeya]

If you're going to have a venue for criticism and opinions, then don't lash out at those giving it. I'm new to this community, yes. But I'm not new to writing, nor am I new to RP'ing, nor am I new to RP'ing communities and these're all things that I've personally seen before. When it comes to PvP, I'm not saying get rid of it. If you read the last part of my point, I promoted 2 styles of PvP: The theatric style (Which is how I've always done it in other communities) and the Mind-Checkers style you guys've got right now.

I've seen both, and I applaud that you've currently got a thread that's applying that theatrical style. That's great, and it's good stuff. As for why it will never fly in a main battle for territory, why not? I legitimately would like to know.

As for my rude commentary, forgive me. I've, literally within the hour and change that I made a post featuring my Skype name, had 4 people add me to discuss the current state of PvP and they agree - it's abysmal. If you enjoy it, congratulations, I'm happy for you. But it's currently acting as a barrier for a lot of people, since they don't enjoy the OOC politics that currently go into it. Many feel it isn't fun for them, and there-in stay away from it.

If people don't enjoy what they're currently doing, they're not going to do it.

No one's lashing out. I think you might be on edge and are projecting there just a bit :p

They won't happen for main battles because people completely lose their desire to pvp. We tried that even in this timeline for the battle of Mandalore itself. It was supposed to be a pre-determined battle with no deaths really. People were horribly uninspired because there was no surprise outcome, no way to turn the tide, no high-adrenaline nature of it. It began to be shelved and forgotten till we finally said it wouldn't be pre-determined and it'd be up in the air.

And congratulations for finding like-minded people. Instead of banding together to collectively talk about everything wrong with the site, why not lead a big initiative to change the pvp mentality in the story? When a main battle happens, do something way more fun that's pre-determined for the same battle. Make it attractive, appealing. That is how you get people to change their minds. Admins won't come in and force changes. This timeline is up to the players entirely. But I'll be honest, complaining about this in an ooc will get nothing done. You can criticize that fact for ages and smack-talk all you want, but that's fact. Yes I realize this thread was meant for just that, but I'm telling you how it'll go from here: nowhere.

Right now, here is what will happen: You and the other people you are no doubt ranting on skype with will continue to harbor ill will. You will no longer participate because you're convinced that some higher power needs to come in and change everything and the site will keep going. The people that don't want to participate won't participate and their lack of presence will honestly not be noticed (it hasn't thus far). We'll keep having our pvps and battles and keep the status quo. These ooc flare ups happen and the people that speak the loudest, do the least in the actual story. Therefore the changes they want never come. The people that are moving the story now are the people that don't mind pvp. If you want change, be change. Bring something to the table, because while this thread is helpful, it ultimately won't fix anything if the players don't do their part.

 

[Berlioz]

No one's lashing out. I think you might be on edge and are projecting there just a bit :p

They won't happen for main battles because people completely lose their desire to pvp. We tried that even in this timeline for the battle of Mandalore itself. It was supposed to be a pre-determined battle with no deaths really. People were horribly uninspired because there was no surprise outcome, no way to turn the tide, no high-adrenaline nature of it. It began to be shelved and forgotten till we finally said it wouldn't be pre-determined and it'd be up in the air.

And congratulations for finding like-minded people. Instead of banding together to collectively talk about everything wrong with the site, why not lead a big initiative to change the pvp mentality in the story? When a main battle happens, do something way more fun that's pre-determined for the same battle. Make it attractive, appealing. That is how you get people to change their minds. Admins won't come in and force changes. This timeline is up to the players entirely. But I'll be honest, complaining about this in an ooc will get nothing done. You can criticize that fact for ages and smack-talk all you want, but that's fact.

Right now, here is what will happen: You and the other people you are no doubt ranting on skype with will continue to harbor ill will. You will no longer participate because you're convinced that some higher power needs to come in and change everything and the site will keep going. We'll keep having our pvps and battles and keep the status quo. These ooc flare ups happen and the people that speak the loudest, do the least in the actual story. Therefore the changes they want never come. The people that are moving the story now are the people that don't mind pvp. If you want change, be change. Bring something to the table, because while this thread is helpful, it ultimately won't fix anything if the players don't do their part.

Let me be clear. I don't harbor any ill will towards anyone here. I've been here two weeks, for God's sake, I couldn't care less. And if you aren't open to change or feedback, then why bother holding these types of threads? It makes absolutely no sense.

You can't ask users what's wrong and expect them to fix the problem for you. Users don't make site decisions, nor should they.

At least, to my experience. The players that don't write as much, or the players that aren't engaged in PvP should still have a voice in the way things should be done - because it should be about them, as well. And clearly, as it stands, a lot of people aren't happy about it and are appealing to speak their opinions in hopes that things better, because they care. I wouldn't dismiss that so lightly.

 

[Crim]

@Berlioz Telling people that they're assholes for liking PvP and saying blatantly... incorrect statements like 'there's no such thing as competitive writing' is not criticism. It's called being rude.

On Christmas.

To Sreeya.

Which is bad.

 

[Berlioz]

@Berlioz Telling people that they're assholes for liking PvP and saying blatantly... incorrect statements like 'there's no such thing as competitive writing' is not criticism. It's called being rude.

On Christmas.

To Sreeya.

Which is bad.

I apologize for calling people assholes then. But I still hold the opinion that it isn't the right way to go about things, since it directly puts the person on the other end of the keyboard on the defensive, which there-in makes things about the writers, and not the characters/story.

 

[Green Ranger]

I feel like both Berlioz and Sreeya have made their points and we should probably just move on.

 

[Phoenix]

Most reasonable adults (to my knowledge, we all are) know the limits of their characters and can reasonably admit when they're taking a hit/losing. If this isn't the case, then you return to the OOC politics regarding PvP (which are inevitable in a writing context).

Negative. That's why we have PvP moderators. In many cases, people are not willing or able to admit when they should take a hit. People won't often choose to lose unless they are forced to, so if you're building your system on an assertion that people will act differently, it's not going to work very well

 

[Sreeya]

Let me be clear. I don't harbor any ill will towards anyone here. I've been here two weeks, for God's sake, I couldn't care less. And if you aren't open to change or feedback, then why bother holding these types of threads? It makes absolutely no sense.

You can't ask users what's wrong and expect them to fix the problem for you. Users don't make site decisions, nor should they.

At least, to my experience. The players that don't write as much, or the players that aren't engaged in PvP should still have a voice in the way things should be done - because it should be about them, as well. And clearly, as it stands, a lot of people aren't happy about it and are appealing to speak their opinions in hopes that things better, because they care. I wouldn't dismiss that so lightly.

That's the difference here. Users drive the site changes in this timeline. Admins are very hands-off this time around. I'm telling you, if you honestly gave it a shot and made pre-determined look amazing, you'd get a lot of people to back you on it and lead to a shift in that direction. That's how pvp became such a driver tbh. You had a lot of people getting others excited for battles and huge fights and it got a lot of excitement and buzz. If you can make that happen for pre-determined, I myself will back you in the story and help you get there. That's what is so incredible about this site right now. It's the amount of power the members actually have, but they just have to act on it.

Anyway, I'm done discussing this for now since we're derailing the thread at this point x_x

 

[Gamov]

I'd just like to float the idea of rescinding the Manaan Rules.

I realize that their intended purpose was to eliminate the drawn out battles we saw last TL (and partially in response to the cluster that was the Battle of Fondor, iirc), but the simple fact of the matter remains that Manaan Rules were built specifically to curtail the kinds of battles we no longer see in this timeline. PvP can be taxing/stressful enough in and of itself without the ever constant specter of a "time out/auto-hit" looming over your head. In my opinion, expecting people to adhere to a 48 hour (72 at the most with request for extensions etc...) posting period is a tad overbearing.

I'm not saying eliminating the Manaan Rules is somehow a magical fix, because it's far from it. But they don't really fit the atmosphere of this timeline where battles are being approached as more personal affairs (2v2 at the most in any given MFB thread), as opposed to gigantic fleets or armies slugging it out.

EDIT:

As an addendum to this, I'd like to point out that I personally feel the Manaan Rules have been fostering this culture among PvP threads where rule lawyering and waiting ones opponent out until you win by technicality have become the norm.

 

[The Living Daylights]

Haven't been here too long but it looks fine in most cases. There's a few grey areas that could do with having official rulings, like the site's stance on Legends which I brought up in the other thread. I also feel there are some limitations, although that might be because we adhere to Canon, which is still very new at this stage and doesn't have much material. Maybe it's just the fact that I've grown up with Legends but it's just infinitely more fleshed-out than Canon, which makes me long for certain Legends material being usable here at times :)

I haven't done PVP yet but it looks pretty contentious in the OOC realm, and unfortunately, I can't say I want to be a part of all the arguing about hits and unrealistic dodges and what not. Regrettably it seems to be mostly people complaining about the "ridiculousness" of the actions of certain other characters which allow them avoid injury, and then it devolves into physics-fests pretty quickly. Personally, I do believe there should be a level of OOC planning that goes into all fights (1 on 1 or massive battles) beforehand, if only to establish the objective of the fight, the desired outcome(s), and how it'll flow. And then if you just write freely while sticking to those, you'll probably get a respectable fight. I mean, if you list out the degree of injury you're willing to accept for your character, then surely there'll be less complaining about how certain users are doing everything they can to avoid being hit or anything along those lines.

EDIT: Also, this is an RP forum, so personally, I think battle threads should be made with a holistic intent in mind - where you want it to go and how you expect it to influence the overall story (because critical battles can have very strong influences, obviously). At the moment, it seems like battle threads are way too focused on technicalities which may mean that we're losing sight of the point of those battle threads to begin with - to create a good story.

Take it from someone who's never actually participated in PVP yet - maybe out of hesitance - but has followed some of the PVP OOC threads.

 

[Outlander]

Oh god. I'm gonna spend a while making a list, suggestions, etc, then come make an actual post.

 

[Elijah Brockway]

You can't ask users what's wrong and expect them to fix the problem for you. Users don't make site decisions, nor should they.

Somebody giving you suggestions on stuff you can do to try and have fun =/= somebody expecting users to fix everything that's wrong with the site. That's a false equivalency.

Anyways, my views on the matter: I like PvP. Writing against other players in a competitive manner is fun to me, and I've liked to do it for a while. Death enabled, no death, w/e. PvP itself is fun.

The thing that annoys me about this site and PvP on this site is not the PvP itself, and it's not the people that enjoy PvP either, because they're generally fun to write with.

It's all the people that like to come on and complain about how PvP is seemingly "the only method to get anything of worth done on the site" or how "PvP causes so much toxicity" and yadda yadda. (If you feel like I'm about to get rude, I'm sorry I'm blunt, but if there's one thing I've learned in all my years of introversion and rarely being able to get involved in a conversation that involves multiple people, I have to be blunt or nothing I say gets acknowledged anyways. kthxbai)

PvP doesn't cause toxicity. I don't think the PvP rules either cause toxicity. They're perfectly fine if you're willing to work within them, if you're willing to be reasonable about what can happen to your character, and you're willing to let a character go if you're taking part in PvP or you're willing to communicate with people to work stuff out so that you don't lose your character. A lot of people I would otherwise call fine, reasonable adults on this site turn into petty, squabbling children when it comes to PvP, and act as though any possible wound to their characters is a wound to themselves. People fight tooth and nail OOCly to prevent any harm coming to their characters when that's just implausible in the extreme if we want to be semi-realistic about any of this, and end up barely posting in the PvP itself, alongside rarely ever writing to their character's level (or they make some sort of mary sue-esque character and couch it well enough in deceptive language that the FLs/AFLs still approve it because they miss what has happened. Or they're just lazy sometimes [looking at you, Prudii]). Then some people get way too into arguing about what would be actually feasible or plausible with somebody who ignores them completely and don't actually take steps to solve it, which might seem to a lot of people what PvP is like in general, but from what I've seen looking at OOC threads, that's generally not the case, people are just too inclined to view the other writer as the enemy and the worst person in the world and end up not working with them. (As for the whole bit in the middle about actually arguing about realism/plausible actions, I'm guilty of that myself. whoops.)

Then, because people refuse to actually work together or be civil with each other in PvP (aside from, again, the people that generally like PvP, who are a whole hell of a lot better about this), that leads to a lot of toxicity between players, and that's what leads to people going and complaining about PvP so much. And both of those together are what end up making PvP look so intimidating to newer players, is my guess. Because so many people jump into PvP but make it terrible for themselves, then they find other people who agree with them, and they get into a massive circlejerk across the forum talking about how terrible PvP is on this site and how toxic it makes people without recognizing that, generally, it's not the PvP that makes people toxic. It's the fact that people are so terrible at separating IC from OOC that they resort to shitty attitudes and childish insults with each other in the PvP, and then they self-reinforce their opinions of PvP in general (and, oftentimes, the people they've PvPed against even if those people have the same attitude) by sitting in a corner and regurgitating all of that hatred into their mouths/chatboxes and swallowing it back over when they end up talking to people who disagree with them and they just mentally go "nuh-uh PvP is bad." And then they find more members who agree.

Cue that massive circlejerk I mentioned. Like, really, it's as bad as parts of Reddit get sometimes, and I'm past the point of really being amused by it.

As for the feeling that PvP is the only way to do things - it's not. And the Jedi and the Sith now both have rankings that have been instituted to showcase the fact that, hey, there are places where advanced characters and writers can aspire to without having to PvP a lot, like the Sith Immortal and the Jedi Master. Factions have missions a lot of the time that aren't conflict based, that you can sign up and do. Factions leaders should probably focus on promoting missions like those to people who don't want to PvP. You can always do fun RP threads within your faction to help train people, just to showcase how active you are in your faction. Training isn't necessary this timeline, but if you and another person are willing to do it, it's fun. You can go and make stories about stuff that's happening while battles are happening over a planet - either another battle with somebody else, nice and pre-determined where you can show off your big, uh...writing skills without fear of anything happening to your characters. (Believe me, I understand liking a character/all your characters so much that you don't want to risk them. And that's fine. Nobody is actually pressuring you into PvP, generally, and if they are, just tell them off for being a prick who is ignoring you and how you say you don't want to PvP because of that. All I'm here to say is that PvP isn't all that terrible most of the time, and it doesn't incite all the toxicity that happens between members, it's the members themselves that do that.)

There are a ton of opportunities to do non-PvP stuff. I've been taking up a bunch of them because I'm ridiculously tired of the massive amount of people on this site who both take part in PvP all the time and also complain about how toxic PvP is and how terrible it is when they're generally the thing that's being toxic (fighting against any harm coming to their characters at all, rules-lawyering all the time, playing the 48-hour rule as much as they can and getting pissy when the same thing is done back to them, etc. etc. etc.), not the act of PvP itself.

As for other stuff: I've had my disagreements with the admin team and how they do things. I still do. That's nothing new to most people (including the admins, I'd imagine, if not, well, ****, I'll have to find my list of disagreements again), but I still like y'all as people, and I know that you generally do take the views of the community into account when you're deciding stuff (for example, removing the 1-main-faction rule, finally). So I'm not going to join in on the other circlejerk that happens which is "the admin team is bad and is ruining swrp!!!1!!11!" You're welcome, Gaba. (Also, obligatory white-shorts reference because making fun of Brandon is my life's mission.)

I generally agree with the idea that the way missions and battles are done in regards to the territory squares themselves (like Sith attacking Coruscant right now, sorry@my team) should be reversed so that you have to actually do it square by square, not just randomly jumping around all over the place. I could think of a ton of fun ways to drive some story action and what-not if we made it so that our fight was legitimately based around lines drawn in the sand across the galaxy itself. But at the same time...

I don't particularly think the way the fight for the galaxy is set up right now is lacking in opportunities to story and such either. It just requires creativity from people, rather than an almost tunnel-vision-esque focus on "gotta get dem squares tho." There's always opportunities to RP stuff in squares/worlds that are experiencing these battles. It can be in the middle of battle and you're trying to organize a civilian evacuation, and you can have a harrying escape but get away alright because #SingleThreadPlotArmour. You can be somebody who was left behind and is now a fugitive of the new government being set up, trying to get away. You can be somebody trying to provide humanitarian aid in the face of the damage caused by the wars. You can RP fun political bullshit. I dunno. Come up with some bloody ideas and do them, don't sit around and moan.

As for the last bit I want to touch on, the Force vs. Tech issue - I agree that this needs worked on, but I think Boli has done a good thing with his FAIL system or whatever it was actually called when he posted it in a suggestion thread (sorry boli my memory is of the bads for names'n'shit). It reflects the spirit of what he was going for originally in this timeline a lot better than where things have devolved to, with the ridiculous rules-lawyering and paramount character bunnying that goes on where somebody can use the Force to lift a pear and then their opponent is claiming that they're now fully exhausted and can't use the Force (obvious exaggeration is obvious), which is really depressing considering I've seen the admins fall into it to (Phœnix, Arclight, don't let me down). That, and considering a lot of the whole "Technology developed specifically to counter the Force" game that has popped up specifically in this timeline was started by a tech mod, and now it's gotten to the point that technology trumps the Force so much that Force-using characters carry a ton of technology purely so that they remain competitive in PvP (and then we get to a whole lot of the pointless PvP bickering because people are toxic but refuse to admit it and try and change themselves, and etc. etc. etc.), and that's just really depressing.

tl;dr: A lot of the site is pretty fine, but if you ask me, about 65% of the member base (the toxic people who cause problems but refuse to admit to it and try and act better) could be banned right now and the site could actually run better if it weren't for the fact that the other 35% is conscientious and would protest that.

(man, that was long for a tl;dr.)

P.S. throw your hatred at me for my comments. I crave it.

 

[Apollyon]

I think the main issue with everyone in role play setting is that everyone has designed ALL their characters to be the "main" character of a tale. Which is fine for your personal storyline but not in every single thread you do. For example, in my thread with Crim, I have allowed my character to take a supporting role while his character acts as the commander of the NPC force. Why? Because having two commanders only causes division in the heat of battle, especially when it is over a single force. A character can still do AWESOME things in a thread without being the leader or the main focus of the thread.

Another issue is that people want activity given to them or they don't think out interesting plots/put time into developing them deeply. A lot of what I see are characters that are already developed and ready for whatever is thrown at them. Which is fine for those that have an idea of where they are taking that character and what their story/purpose is within their faction. While starting off as a less powerful character does cause you to have a pvp disadvantage at first it allows you to develop that character AS they grow. This in turn causes interesting twists within a character that might not have been there before.

Finally, people don't do things unless there is a carrot at the end of the stick. Not ALL adventures have rewards attached to them, at least not initially. Part of every good story isn't what you receive for completing 15 posts of decent quality between two writers, it is the journey, the character development, and how the ending impacts your character as an individual. This applies in personal stories too, not ALL of them have to give an immediate reward at the end of them, perhaps a piece of the greater puzzle your character is attempting to solve or maybe a clue to where they should look to find that clue but certainly not the solution every single time.

An important part of role play isn't just your character growing stronger in power, it's how interactions and the choices they make impact them as people. I feel like some people forget this key detail which causes them to struggle inside of role play environments at times. Finally, doing things that don't make sense IC for OOC reasons, when you are deiciding what to do in role play thinking about how your character would react or act in situations is key. Don't just do something because of OOC plans if it doesn't align with your character, it only makes you as an individual writer feel as if you have cheapened yourself and your character.

TL:DR: You don't always have to be the main character, being a supportive character is OKAY. Take your time with plots, develop them fully and role play them in a way that generates interest. Remember that not EVERYTHING you do has to +1 your character in some way, doing something that would interest your character just because you can is OKAY. Develop your character and the way they interact with the world around them and never stray from it unless their beliefs are beginning to change.

 

[Raydo]

As someone who has been around the site for a good bit now (wth am I doing with my life) and who has never really been good at PvP, I can tell you that this TL is a vast improvement on how things were ran the last half of the previous TL (Which I enjoyed also).

I have seen new members be pulled into the action and story much more quickly than previously. Some have had said that the staff do not listen to what the voice of the majority, but I argue that this TL is a direct response to the voice of the majority. Is it perfect? No. Have there been tweaks? Yes, and I am sure we will see more as the become needed.

While most things are decided through PvP and direct confrontation with other players, I am an example of someone who has participated in a pretty major faction event without there being traditional PvP (and it could have been stopped prettily easily if people had chosen to take that route.) . I had a Jedi who crippled one the Jedi's only large ships. When people caught wind of it, we all got together and worked out a story that worked for everyone. The important thing is keep an open mind, I knew full and well that my character could have, and maybe should have, gotten killed but I didn't argue why I should get my way - I pointed out multiple possible story directions for all parties involved and we worked through it. This isn't to say I think everything should be decided this way, but it can and does happen.

It is all good to argue for collaborative story telling, but I can point to one example where the Jedi put out an arc where people were given prompts to go thread and the arc would revolve around what happened in those threads, and we got ZERO response. This was something that the faction leadership put a good amount of work into and it was completely ignored. Again, the opportunities are out there but it requires players to be active and buckle down and write at a half way decent pace.

So, What is the site doing right? I would say the Site is at its most inclusive state I have seen in quite some time. New members are brought "into the fold" quickly and there doesn't seem to be too large of a gap between new members in a faction and veteran members. This goes beyond just saying "Welcome" in the new member board. I applaud everyone who has sought out that new member and offered to write with them and help them in anyway possible - this is what community is and it is awesome to see.

What can the site improve on? The only thing I would like to see is the planning process of "Main Plots" be a bit more transparent. Perhaps the Faction leadership could recruit new and old members alike to plan out such threads. I know that not every single plot can be out in the open, but I think we will find people care much more about them when they can read all the information themselves than try to keep up with "Main Threads". It would also increase participation from members across the experience spectrum and not limit the planning and participation of major plots to the elite. ("Reaction" threads do not count as real participation.) I am not saying there is a huge problem with this currently but it meant more as suggestion to keep us well away from falling into the pitfalls of "Cliques"

Be nice to others and be upfront about with yourself and others while writing in and out of PvP about thread expectations - I promise you won't come away disappointed.

 

[Jabonicus]

One issue I see is that the site has become one major opinion versus the other, where talking behind each others backs occur and malice grows... Because people can't agree on something.

It's ridiculous.

 

[Raydo]

One issue I see is that the site has become one major opinion versus the other, where talking behind each others backs occur and malice grows... Because people can't agree on something.

It's ridiculous.

This is a little vague. If someone is being abusive to others behind their back or otherwise - the first thing people should do is stand up to said person and let them know that behaviour isn't going to be tolerated the second thing they should do it report it to the staff.

 

[The Living Daylights]

It's interesting that this thread was for general RP but there's been such a powerful focus on PVP in this thread. I guess that's the real problem of this timeline, huh?

 

[Green Ranger]

Liking the feedback so far, everyone. Just one thing, but saying 'PvP is good/bad' could probably using some expanding on, since it's kind of a massive thing, so if you could, try to break down aspects of PvP into what is good and bad and why you think that is and stuff. A few people have done that and the insight's pretty fascinating so far (Elijah, for example - thanks for the memoirs. o_O) and there's a lot that can be learned from specifics like that, so I'd love to see more of that.

Also don't forget the rules and the particulars of the rulesets since I've heard a lot about that before now but I feel like it could be discussed a bit more in this thread.

Again, keep up the feedback, this is interesting reading so far. I'll try and assemble my own thoughts when I'm able.

 

[Outlander]

It's interesting that this thread was for general RP but there's been such a powerful focus on PVP in this thread. I guess that's the real problem of this timeline, huh?

The issue is that it's incredibly divisive. There's a vocal group for it and against it.

 

[Jabonicus]

This is a little vague. If someone is being abusive to others behind their back or otherwise - the first thing people should do is stand up to said person and let them know that behaviour isn't going to be tolerated the second thing they should do it report it to the staff.

Two distinct groups shit on each other quite consistently whenever a discussion like this pops up. It typically ends in the thread being locked after one side throws a few more pounds of shit at the others than the others can. Examples can be found in places such as the thread for "allow more warnings before bans" or literally the thread that just got locked minutes ago.

I don't want to name names, but the way people are treating one another is sickening.