Point of the Spear OOC

[Gamov]

@Swedish Guy, @Dark Lord Kyle, @Valen Pelora

@Valen Pelora, just to clarify, in my opening post I said our ships fired at an orbital station. Not the listening post, which (per the write up) is located in the mountains on Telos.

 

[Valen Pelora]

Whoops! Misread that, edited to reflect that it was the orbital station.

@Gamov

 

[Gamov]

All good.

One other detail I'd like clarification on though, from which side are your ships approaching mine? Left or right?

 

[Valen Pelora]

If the POV is looking towards the planet (so your ships are flying towards the planet) we are the right.

 

[Gamov]

Perfecto. Thanks!

 

[Eccles]

@Valen Pelora I'd like you to add your troop numbers in a spoiler as well, just like @Gamov did.

 

[Danee]

Yeah, I was trying to figure out what kind of ships you guys brought with you, but you don't mention what everything is.

 

[Valen Pelora]

I actually forgot to put it in the OOC since I had just done it in the other fleet tactical. They have been added.

 

[Danee]

Okay.

So, the way I understand this segment:

Subsection A: Tactical Battles are battles in which PCs lead small armies of NPCs. A character cannot command more than 500 units. - Tactical Battles

Means that the Commander of one side of the battle, may only have a total of 500 units under his or her command. Now, looking at our thread, the way I see it, is that @Valen Pelora is the one Commanding the battle and is above @Narsi in rank, placing everyone who Narsi brought with him to battle, under @Valen Pelora's command, meaning that the total amount of units went from 500 up to 815 with the addition of the ships that Narsi provided.

I suggest that instead of bringing in an additional strike force, Narsi instead takes command over one of the ships under Valen's command. I believe that @Gamov and @Dark Lord Kyle both agree with me on this.

 

[Valen Pelora]

Okay.

So, the way I understand this segment:


Means that the Commander of one side of the battle, may only have a total of 500 units under his or her command. Now, looking at our thread, the way I see it, is that @Valen Pelora is the one Commanding the battle and is above @Narsi in rank, placing everyone who Narsi brought with him to battle, under @Valen Pelora's command, meaning that the total amount of units went from 500 up to 815 with the addition of the ships that Narsi provided.

I suggest that instead of bringing in an additional strike force, Narsi instead takes command over one of the ships under Valen's command. I believe that @Gamov and @Dark Lord Kyle both agree with me on this.

The rule is not 500 units per commander or per thread. The rule is no single PC can command more than 500 units. For example, I could not command 1000 units. @Narsi can arrive with his 300-ish units. I believe he is treating his Crusier as "capital ship strength" and therefore 250 units. Really it's a 100 unit ship.

We will be keeping the units we have there. You can't expect a "sneak" attack during a MFB to not be vigorously defended.

For clarity, it's my understand Telos is essentially uninhabited besides the listening post. Our singular goal is to clean out/evac the listening post and dip. There are only IC consequences for this battle, no OOC related to the war.

 

[Gamov]

Common practice with every tactical battle to date has only allowed for 500 units total per side, regardless of participants. @Gian Greydragon and myself were limited to 500 units between us during the main battle at Ithor (short as it was). If a main battle between factions can limit two players on the same side to 500 units, then a small skirmish (regardless of any events which it takes place concurrent to) should follow suit.

I believe we can all agree that if tactical battles are allowed to operate under this unfettered rule where each individual character can command 500 units, then there is nothing stopping a domino effect where we go from a nice tidy thread with 5 participants and even sides, to a cluster**** with 10 people and 100,000 ships (adjust for hyperbole).

Not to sound overly dickish, but I went through both Sith Leadership and Admin channels (whom Sith Leadership said they would discuss my plans with before giving me a green light) just to get approval for the forces I have. I have no problem facing opposition. I have no problem with Narsi joining. I do, however, have a problem where the rule governing tactical battles leaves the door open for dog piling on a whim when it took me near a month just to be given the go ahead to even start this thread.

Understand that I do not mean to disparage Sith Leadership or the Admins, I am merely illustrating the lengths to which I personally went to get to this point. I came in understanding there was a high probability of meeting opposition, and so long as the sides were kept even and fair I was perfectly content with that. Frankly, I don't want the battle to reach beyond 500 units per side. It's insane to think things will stay organized for long if you start randomly ringing up your buddies saying "yo, drop in with 300 ships behind the bad guys!"

I realize that the rule, as it reads, allows for me to likewise summon reinforcements to balance things out. But I don't want to do that. I would rather my merit as a creative writer determines whether or not I win or lose, as opposed to having the convenience of directing random reinforcements to outflank my opponent in the blink of an eye. At that point, there's nothing tactical or strategic about how I participate in the battle. I merely bait a player's ship, wait for them to move, then... GAMOV uses GHOST FLEET! the Jedi are outflanked!

I would hope you all see where I'm coming from here. 500 units per side keeps things organized, and emphasizes critical thinking and creative writing to out think/write the opposition.

 

[Gamov]

Just to clarify, in case my above post was in any way misconstrued as being anything other than a request for @Narsi to alter his post, I will request that he does so to keep the sides balanced and the unit count to 500 per side.

Again, I am well aware of how the rule reads and that it also grants me the right to call on additional units to balance out the field. However, given the obvious potential for abuse this open-ended rule inherently invites, I would much rather we refrain from taking advantage of the loophole in favor of a fair, balanced and practical approach. If it cannot be seen clear for all sides to come to a cordial agreement on this matter, then so be it. I believe I am not being unreasonable by requesting we all play fair as opposed to having at one another just because a poorly written rule (in my opinion) doesn't technically bar us from doing so.

 

[Tsunami]

I've written my post so that if it does turn out that @Narsi decides to agree to the terms, I will merely transfer my location onto the ship that he takes control of. I know it was mentioned me taking control of a ship myself on the Discord however i've never seen one of the battles before.

 

[Narsi]

Well
Since Tsunami's joined, this makes my first concern about using greater NPC numbers to even the score less of a priority. I know you said that they have less of an impact in tactical battles, which is true, but they also still possess a far greater impact than any NPCs. Mister Cheese, the one running around in a Starfighter? That Starfighter is now automatically better than all the other Starfighters in the field, and by directly accompanying them, he gives the Sith Starfighters a leg up against their competition. The same basic principle applies for the Corvettes and Gunships, although more indirectly.

That issue is largely fixed now, so here's my offer.
First, my cruiser, now that I actually look more closely and compare to other ships , it should only be 100 units.
I'll also take away one of my corvettes, which also eliminates more than a third of my Starfighters.
In the end, I'll be left with about 135 units and I'll even set myself a bit farther away so its less of immediate flanking maneuver.
I'll remind you that this Jedi territory, and as stated in Valen's post, the rendezvous and launch point for the current MFB, so its not really stretch that a cruiser and corvette would show up as extra reinforcements.
@Gamov

 

[Gamov]

WellSince Tsunami's joined, this makes my first concern about using greater NPC numbers to even the score less of a priority. I know you said that they have less of an impact in tactical battles, which is true, but they also still possess a far greater impact than any NPCs. Mister Cheese, the one running around in a Starfighter? That Starfighter is now automatically better than all the other Starfighters in the field, and by directly accompanying them, he gives the Sith Starfighters a leg up against their competition. The same basic principle applies for the Corvettes and Gunships, although more indirectly.

With all due respects, this point just reinforces my position that the Jedi do not need additional ships to gain an "edge" in the battle for themselves. Your character could just as easily have taken command of a fighter squadron to give your own fighters the "leg up" mine have. Likewise, he could have gained control of a corvette or a frigate to produce similar results. I simply do not see the justification for drawing in more ships and pushing the envelope beyond 500 units per side for the sake of "making things even".

If the concern truly is the PC to PC ratio, then I believe the issue has been resolved with @Tsunami's arrival. As of last night, the Imperial PC count is back down to 3 after I spoke with @TheFearlessCheese and explained that (for the sake of keeping confusion to a minimum) I wanted to limit the number of PCs - and thus ever shifting perspectives - to a minimum. They understood and graciously bowed out without incident, and for that I thank them whole heartedly.

My only aim here is to keep everything balanced, fair and, above all else, organized. So again, I will politely ask that the extra Jedi ships be removed from play so we can move on with this thread in an amenable and respectful fashion.

 

[Valen Pelora]

@Narsi's proposal is more than fair and would allow the thread to continue. The main faction battles were limited to 500 units v 500 units by agreement of both faction leaders. An invading force is limited to 500 units. The defending force is limited to the strength of the relevant story planet. Ventooine as an Outpost has 1000 unit capacity.

This was a sneak attack fleet tactical battle launched during a planned main faction battle on a planet (that while relatively uninhabited) does house an important Jedi structure. If you wanted the fight to be clean and limited someone could have approached me beforehand. That did not occur. I read the intent as being to catch the Jedi off guard while most of our faction members are engaged in a MFB.

You are certainly within your right to launch such an attack, just as we are within out rights to defend the attack. That same MFB thread mentions Telos/Ventooine as the hub of the attack and the retreat point for Ziost. It's plausible for @Narsi's ships to be here and I will not ask him to remove them.

 

[Gamov]

Seeing as I have little choice, I will accept @Narsi's offer.

The thread will continue, but I would like to go on record as saying I am very disappointed in this turn of events.

I knew coming in there was a chance the Jedi could respond and meet my forces in battle. Fine, no problem. Excellent, in fact. Had the attack gone unanswered, it would have been a rather dull thread. However, that understanding was based on a personal hope - or rather expectation - that whoever may have shown up to challenge me would do so with the intent of engaging in a good, clean fight. My expectations it seems, as has been the case more often than not, were thrown out the window within the first few posts.

Think of me as a whiner for this post all you want, but I believe the art of creative writing has been on life support for a long time around here. And this thread just proved to me that it is officially dead. What's the fun in engaging someone in a fair fight when you can just dogpile, thump them over the head with the rule book and make them look like an idiot? The old saying "just because you can doesn't mean you should." comes to mind.

Suffice it to say, win or lose, I will not be attempting anything like this ever again. I believe I was nothing but cordial and reasonable with my requests, and instead of being met with an open mind, I was met with "it's our right to do this. deal with it." (adjust for paraphrasing).

That said, we're moving on and soldiering forth.

Who was next in the post order?

 

[Tsunami]

I don't think ever in history has there been a truly even war... there is advantages used and exploited all the time. I think making balanced force sized for the sake of character preservation is boring for one, and unrealistic for two!

If every game of thrones battle in the books was "And the two bastards, matched each other with conveniently the same number of cavalry, knights and bowmen in the spirit of fair fighting." then game of thrones would have been pretty crap writing... Writing does not required balanced sides in conflict, writing requires writing.

 

[Valen Pelora]

I'm next and will be posting tonight. I believe the current order is as follows:
@Gamov
@Swedish Guy
@Narsi
@Tsunami
@Valen Pelora
@Dark Lord Kyle

 

[Narsi]

I've finished my edits as well
So we're good to continue