Military Questionair covers fitness, including spiritual.

[Jaqen H'ghar]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/06/army-faces-questions-over_n_805524.html

The Army is facing questions over a "spiritual fitness" portion of a mandatory questionnaire, with some atheists calling it "invidious and not inclusive" of soldiers who are nonbelievers.

The Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation learned in December that soldiers were being asked to respond to statements such as "I am a spiritual person" and "I believe there is a purpose for my life."

If soldiers received a low score on their spiritual fitness questions, they received an assessment that said "Spiritual fitness is an area of possible difficulty for you. ... Improving your spiritual fitness should be an important goal."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-rodda/mandatory-us-army-survey-_b_801597.html

Last week, a number of religious freedom activists, bloggers and organizations were alerted by Sgt. Justin Griffith, a soldier at Fort Bragg, N.C., to a mandatory U.S. Army survey called the "Soldier Fitness Tracker." One of the areas included in this survey, which measures a soldier's fitness in a number of areas, is "spiritual" fitness. According to his survey results, Sgt. Griffith is unfit to serve.

This is absolutely ridiculous, why would this even matter? I mean the whole argument is that spiritual people are less likely to commit suicide, but going "You're not fit to serve unless you believe" is completely ridiculous, and might drive unbalanced people towards suicide rather than away from it. If they're that concerned with the mental well-being of our troops (which I think they should be, absolutely) they should offer actual psych exams periodically. Not this farce of a thinly veiled attempt at getting people to convert, and that goes for any religion, though christianity seems to be the one being pushed.

 

[Malz]

Most Americans typically think that America's a Christian Nation. In other words, you can practice whatever religion you want, but it's wrong because Christianity is right and good and tolerant and loving and you should be thankful that your Christian overlords allow you to practice freely.

Yeah, people like that are utter bullshit.

I'm not about to join the army at any point anyway.

 

[Dan.]

Are you honestly discharged or rejected from applying if you don't score well on the Spiritual section? AS long as that's not happening, and they're only saying "Improving your spiritual fitness should be an important goal.", I don't see a problem here. As well, from your post, it doesn't appear to be a conversion attempt. It's a sign of maturity when an individual begins to think about the hereafter, and an immature army is a inefficient army.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

Are you honestly discharged or rejected from applying if you don't score well on the Spiritual section? AS long as that's not happening, and they're only saying "Improving your spiritual fitness should be an important goal.", I don't see a problem here. As well, from your post, it doesn't appear to be a conversion attempt. It's a sign of maturity when an individual begins to think about the hereafter, and an immature army is a inefficient army.

Except that not everyone believes in an after life, or some people just don't care. It's not a sign of maturity, it's not a sign of anything other than an individual belief. Furthermore, again, the religious beliefs shouldn't be taken into account as far as how well a serviceman is "performing" on any level what so ever.

Let me try and relate it to you. Because you are christian, you are now unfit to go to any ivy league college.

Now obviously I'm not being serious, but if I were seriously telling you that, would you be insulted? Of course you would. Just as someone who isn't christian, or doesn't believe in anything (as is their american right to believe in or not whatever religion or lack there of) is told that because of this they shouldn't serve.

We're talking about telling people who risk their lives in battle, and serve our country, in some cases leaving their family for months on end with little contact. Now because they don't believe in an after life, or aren't "spiritual" they are told by the people administering the tests (hint: the US Army) that they shouldn't serve.

 

[Viggy]

Are you honestly discharged or rejected from applying if you don't score well on the Spiritual section? AS long as that's not happening, and they're only saying "Improving your spiritual fitness should be an important goal.", I don't see a problem here. As well, from your post, it doesn't appear to be a conversion attempt. It's a sign of maturity when an individual begins to think about the hereafter, and an immature army is a inefficient army.

There's no reason to even ask those kinds of questions, let alone keep score and tell non-spiritual soldiers that they need to change. Also, there's nothing immature about a lack of belief in the hereafter, and I say that as a religious person myself. Atheists, agnostics, the irreligious and so on deserve the same respect as anyone else.

Consider how you would feel if religious soldiers were being given some atheism-encouraging line ("Improving your scientific reasoning should be an important goal", or whatever). This is the same, just from the other end of the spectrum.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Except that not everyone believes in an after life, or some people just don't care. It's not a sign of maturity, it's not a sign of anything other than an individual belief.

No, Dan is correct. There's a difference between "thinking of the hereafter," as Dan said, and believing in God, Heaven, etc. It's a sign of maturity because you're beginning to recognize your mortality.

Wondering whether there's an afterlife or pondering what might happen after death is a natural line of thought when you begin thinking about your own mortality.

 

[Malz]

I'm pretty sure most army people realize the meaning of "mortality" when they shoot others.

I can tell I'm getting bitter so I'll stop.

 

[Derpy Boots]

No, Dan is correct. There's a difference between "thinking of the hereafter," as Dan said, and believing in God, Heaven, etc. It's a sign of maturity because you're beginning to recognize your mortality.

Wondering whether there's an afterlife or pondering what might happen after death is a natural line of thought when you begin thinking about your own mortality.

I'm very conscious of the fact that if I got hot in the head I'd die, but I don't believe in God or the afterlife. ;o

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

No, Dan is correct. There's a difference between "thinking of the hereafter," as Dan said, and believing in God, Heaven, etc. It's a sign of maturity because you're beginning to recognize your mortality.

Wondering whether there's an afterlife or pondering what might happen after death is a natural line of thought when you begin thinking about your own mortality.

Okay to be fair, I should've pointed out that it wasn't talking about an after life, it was talking about spirituality, and religious beliefs that inspire a meaning to life.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

I'm very conscious of the fact that if I got hot in the head I'd die, but I don't believe in God or the afterlife. ;o

Once again, it's not about believing in God or the afterlife. It's about recognizing the fact that you're going to die some day and naturally wondering if there's something after that. Whether you come to believe in something after or not is up to you.

 

[Dan.]

I can't believe that this portion of a test is so important, an applicant is denied or even discouraged from serving. Volunteers are in to short a supply for the army to even consider a move like that.

Also, there's nothing immature about a lack of belief in the hereafter, and I say that as a religious person myself.

With a grain of salt, I agree if it's simply a lack of belief. Atheism means you've at least considered the possibility of an afterlife. If someone has just given no thought at all to their atheism or the possibility of life after physical death, I would bet the probability of that individual's maturity being low is increased.

Some of the most immature people I know have stated something along the lines of 'I don't know if there's a God and I don't care- not that I'm an atheist or anything, I just don't care about dying.' Thinking about the hereafter requires an open mind and a degree of growth and maturity.

That said, I still don't think this 'Spiritual Fitness' is as big a deal as we're making it out to be. If someone is actually being denied or officially discouraged from enlisting in the military because they are atheists, my attitude and opinions would be much different.

There's no reason to even ask those kinds of questions, let alone keep score and tell non-spiritual soldiers that they need to change.

In many world religions, suicide is a sin if not strongly looked down upon. The suicide rate of soldiers has gone up, as has the proportion of atheists in the recruitment pool. I'm not saying causation exists, but a slight correlation does.

 

[Derpy Boots]

Once again, it's not about believing in God or the afterlife. It's about recognizing the fact that you're going to die some day and naturally wondering if there's something after that. Whether you come to believe in something after or not is up to you.

So wouldn't the "or not" part essentially mean you're not religious seeing as you don't believe? Thus canceling out the statement based on the fact that you can be conscious and, in your own opinion, confident in the complete lack of an afterlife?

I don't know what I'm saying. I'm gonna do the step method.

If you believe in an afterlife you are obviously conscious of the fact that you will die and something comes after.

If you DON'T believe in the afterlife but STILL KNOW that you're gonna die, doesn't that make you just as 'mature' as someone who DOES believe in the afterlife.

Essentially what I mean is both believers and non-believers are conscious of the fact that one day they will die, and being a believer or non-believer does not influence your maturity as long as you're aware of that.

Okay. My brain just died. :CDumb

 

[Dan.]

No, Dan is correct.

That just made my life, no lies.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

Okay so if spiritual fitness isn't that big a deal, I think that you should start taking tests that tell you how to be a better atheist then. Clearly when told that you should focus on lack of spiritual belief because you're not logical enough, there's no problem with it. You're speaking about being open minded, but you're refusing to put yourself in the shoes of someone else. Think about it for a brief moment, if it was you in that situation. How would you feel? If you were told that because you're christian, you're not good enough to do whatever it is you wanted to do.

Regardless of if it actually effects you doing what you're wanting to do, or your ability to sign up or do those things, you're still being told you. are. not. good. enough. You. shouldn't be allowed. to.

Really sit there and think about it for like 5 minutes. You're sitting there being told you shouldn't do what you've been doing your whole life. Or what you've always dreamed of doing. Because you're beliefs are different than someone else.

Seriously, you've talked about being persecuted here for being a christian. I've seen you get all kinds of upset because you were thought less of for believing what you believe, and that's just on a forum. Imagine being told that about your career. Your job. Aspects of your life that actually mater more than just a forum.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

So wouldn't the "or not" part essentially mean you're not religious seeing as you don't believe? Thus canceling out the statement based on the fact that you can be conscious and, in your own opinion, confident in the complete lack of an afterlife?

I don't know what I'm saying. I'm gonna do the step method.

If you believe in an afterlife you are obviously conscious of the fact that you will die and something comes after.

If you DON'T believe in the afterlife but STILL KNOW that you're gonna die, doesn't that make you just as 'mature' as someone who DOES believe in the afterlife.

Essentially what I mean is both believers and non-believers are conscious of the fact that one day they will die, and being a believer or non-believer does not influence your maturity as long as you're aware of that.

Okay. My brain just died. :CDumb

Whether you believe or don't believe has nothing to do with the maturity of THINKING ABOUT YOUR MORTALITY AND WHAT'S BEYOND. Thinking about what might be beyond is, in the context of what we're talking about here, totally irrelevant to believing or not believing.

Seriously, this isn't a tough concept what I'm saying here.

 

[Derpy Boots]

Seriously, this isn't a tough concept what I'm saying here.

I'm a stupid person.

But you're saying a decisive attitude is immature? Cuz what it sounds like is you're saying that someone who dwells on what comes after is somehow more mature than someone who has made up their mind that there is nothing after.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

I'm a stupid person.

But you're saying a decisive attitude is immature? Cuz what it sounds like is you're saying that someone who dwells on what comes after is somehow more mature than someone who has made up their mind that there is nothing after.

Wow...

I never said dwelling. Everyone questions the existence of the afterlife at some point. You don't pop out of the womb knowing the afterlife exists or doesn't exist. At some point, you consider that question in the context of knowing that you're going to die and pondering the potential of what's beyond your death.

 

[Derpy Boots]

Wow...

I never said dwelling. Everyone questions the existence of the afterlife at some point. You don't pop out of the womb knowing the afterlife exists or doesn't exist. At some point, you consider that question in the context of knowing that you're going to die and pondering the potential of what's beyond your death.

But isn't that usually when you're like, 12? I think it can already be assumed that the majority of if not all soldiers have thought about what comes after death without asking them. Kinda like asking a thirteen year old if he... y'know... likes... starbucks...

 

[Enishi]

So long as this doesn't affect whether or not they'd hire an atheist, I'm kinda ok.

It's stupid to say "Spiritual fitness is an area of possible difficulty for you. ... Improving your spiritual fitness should be an important goal." -- Not because believing in God or a hereafter is stupid, but because they are treating a lack of spirituality like a problem.

No one is an atheist just because -- becoming an Atheist is a personal thing and, in certain cases, a very dire thing to consider. Hell, most (if not all) atheists today were formerly religious before turning away from it. Considering what happens after death is not a sign of maturity; thinking in the present and the near-future is a sign of maturity.

bee-tee-dubs, I'm not responding to anyone specific in this thread; I'm just responding to the initial post kthx

 

[Derpy Boots]

Considering what happens after death is not a sign of maturity; thinking in the present and the near-future is a sign of maturity.

Cha. This is basically what I was getting at. But you somehow did it in one sentence.:CStern