Jedi Master Rank Ups

[Wit]

Ahh, I see. Well that's really simple to explain. Let's first take out the rank being some sort of reward for OOC activity and contribution to the faction. The faction reward system already has that covered. Masters need to be something more, and as Loco said earlier there's actually no major reward for being a Master, you do stuff and even as a Knight you can get a lot.

Now for the three criteria you mentioned. If you're active, if you're participating in PvPs, and if you're leading missions, then you do get rewarded. But what if you secretly think that "if I use some dark side today and use even more light side tomorrow then I'll be fine", or that killing people to get info is okay, or that torturing someone can ever be justified then you're not worthy of being a Jedi Master. There have been characters who qualified for all three criteria you mentioned, and their own writers would agree they were not fit to be Master. And the simple matter is the trials ask the questions that reveal if characters have those tendencies.

 

[Raydo]

Here is the obligatory "the trials are cool" line. I don't think anyone is suggesting they aren't.

Historically the Jedi Master rank has always carried some OOC responsibility to it, to lead the faction in both combat and missions. If you aren't judging the candidate on combat, post activity, and alignment of character ...maybe that should factor into it more. These things would be what the Council would know prior to the actual trial that could and would affect a vote.

When you look at the Jedi mission boards and almost all of the content for players within in the last six weeks have been from lower level members and when no higher level Jedi could be convinced to sign up to defend a Temple..maybe the requirements and trial could use a bit of tweaking.

 

[Phoenix]

Here is the obligatory "the trials are cool" line. I don't think anyone is suggesting they aren't.

Historically the Jedi Master rank has always carried some OOC responsibility to it, to lead the faction in both combat and missions. If you aren't judging the candidate on combat, post activity, and alignment of character ...maybe that should factor into it more. These things would be what the Council would know prior to the actual trial that could and would affect a vote.

When you look at the Jedi mission boards and almost all of the content for players within in the last six weeks have been from lower level members and when no higher level Jedi could be convinced to sign up to defend a Temple..maybe the requirements and trial could use a bit of tweaking.

Ironically, I feel if anything this is an argument for making promotion even more difficult

 

[Dread]

I always get excited when someone applies for the master trials because I enjoy reading them. I'll be applying for it one day and like the idea of it being tough. The rank is something to really strive towards in the Jedi. You can't just kill your way to the top, and high council seats will be extremely hard to obtain once they're filled, so master being a long-term rank up goal might end up helping activity.

 

[Raydo]

Ironically, I feel if anything this is an argument for making promotion even more difficult

It certainly adds more criteria to judge on. Obviously no one is going to ace every category but if they excel on most of them then they get promoted.

This allows there to be a bunch of different types of Jedi Masters depending on what they focused on. Maybe you spent level one making missions for training or spent them PvPing. Both those a valuable to a faction and should be rewarded with rank. Mission rewards are great, but My Sith had a lot of mission rewards by the time I hit level two....the Rank Promotion was much more satisfying.

 

[Loco]

I think part of the problem is viewing the "rank" of Master as some sort of reward for your service in the first place, because that's not what it really is at all. It's a formal recognition of something you already are.

 

[Wit]

It certainly adds more criteria to judge on. Obviously no one is going to ace every category but if they excel on most of them then they get promoted.

This allows there to be a bunch of different types of Jedi Masters depending on what they focused on. Maybe you spent level one making missions for training or spent them PvPing. Both those a valuable to a faction and should be rewarded with rank. Mission rewards are great, but My Sith had a lot of mission rewards by the time I hit level two....the Rank Promotion was much more satisfying.

There already are a bunch of different types of Jedi Masters. Wyck is old school, Fenn is more of a go out an get shit done type, Pleb's Master is a healer, Zig's Master is a strict and by the books Master, my Master was a stick your nose into shit because it needs fixing even if it's the stupid thing to do type. What kind of Jedi Master have we lost out on because of the trials?

If a character is Jedi Master material then he will pass the trials, simple as that. There is not just activity that plays a role in this, it's what kind of character you are.

EDIT: Loco said it perfectly, Mastery is not a reward. It's recognition that you are, above everything else, a Jedi. A good Jedi.

 

[Raydo]

That's like saying becoming a president isn't a reward for winning an election, its only a recognition of you already being president. :p

Of course being promoted to Jedi Master is being recognized for contribution to the Order combined with personal development of a character.

*edit* The Rank of Jedi Knight is recognition that you are a true Jedi.

 

[Loco]

That's like saying becoming a president isn't a reward for winning an election, its only a recognition of you already being president. :p

Of course being promoted to Jedi Master is being recognized for contribution to the Order combined with personal development of a character.

*edit* The Rank of Jedi Knight is recognition that you are a true Jedi.

 

[Raydo]

Really no need for that. You asked people to come chime in, so I did. Ill reiterate my point and be done. IMO The promotion process (Trials) could and should acknowledge at the end of the day, higher level Jedi should have the expectation that they are responsible for pushing and leading the faction OOC as well as IC. Otherwise, you end up with a dead faction sprinkled with a couple interesting philosophical threads that do little more than to promote interesting personal story points.

 

[GABA]

I think part of the problem is viewing the "rank" of Master as some sort of reward for your service in the first place, because that's not what it really is at all. It's a formal recognition of something you already are.

If that's the case, why have the trial at all? Why isn't other masters just telling the Jedi this recognition then?

 

[Loco]

I didnt mean it maliciously, it just seemed like a fitting gif given the topic.

But, to get back on the topic, you and Gaba neither one have really given any clear picture of what exactly is wrong or should change. The trials already take characters performance and participation into account (trials of skill and courage). However, as we've explained I think pretty thoroughly throughout, those alone only help- they're not enough on their own. We've also stressed multiple times that there is absolutely nothing stopping Knights from stepping into those leadership roles and pushing activity. Wits character, Jon, was a leader and activity driver (both IC and OOC) well before he was a Master, and he's not the only one.

If that's the case, why have the trial at all? Why isn't other masters just telling the Jedi this recognition then?

Formal process for formal recognition. If your Knight thinks they're a Master in all but name and doesnt want to undergo the trial, more power to them. They dont have to.

 

[Nightfall]

Jumping in, though I don’t have tonnes to add at this point, though it’s been an interesting read either way so nice discussion everyone! These are thoughts from someone fairly new to the site as well.

I guess yeah having run quite a few of the trials now, there’s definitely a fair bit of chat between us, so don’t stress on number of questions usually, sometimes one question will reveal a lot, sometimes not so much so we might do follow ups and such to push an area, or try to reveal something else, the number isn’t particualrly relevant :)

Otherwise, yeah part of the trials (similar to what others have said) is seeing a well-rounded Jedi, their role and sort of feel is quite niche so it’s an interesting one to try and adduce as part of a trial. We definitely read over old threads, look at the questions as part of seeing where the character fits. That’s why the trials in the lore write up that we sort of refer to are fairly broad, lots of ways to hit similar stuff.

To respond to your last point there @GABA, the trial I guess serves a dual purpose of confirming that, and then with the title granting as bestowing it formally :)

And equally a trial is the applicant putting themselves forward for the rank, rather than the council calling them in to offer it to them, which I feel is definitely a part of why it can seem fairly tough.

I guess something I’m taking away from this discussion is that I want to better confirm for everyone that not achieving Master is absolutely fine, no stigma, no nothing, you’re still a valued faction member and can definitely do loads and we’ll be keen for it! There’s even a load of interesting titles that your character can get that aren’t Master or don’t require it.

Secondly another thing I think I’ll try and make clearer is that you can definitely do it multiple times, and that’s cool too! Vollen has two Council hearings before he joined the Council, and there’s nothing wrong with that either, we’d welcome it too :)

But glad this thread happened to give light to those, and I’ll try to highlight that stuff more in future threads!

 

[Wit]

Really no need for that. You asked people to come chime in, so I did. Ill reiterate my point and be done. IMO The promotion process (Trials) could and should acknowledge at the end of the day, higher level Jedi should have the expectation that they are responsible for pushing and leading the faction OOC as well as IC. Otherwise, you end up with a dead faction sprinkled with a couple interesting philosophical threads that do little more than to promote interesting personal story points.

Higher ranked Jedi do have an OOC obligation to do things that justify their rank, the trials don't change that in any way. And if you're worried that higher ranked Jedi are not doing enough then you should look back at the faction's activity over the past few months, the Masters and Councilors have done loads, and have been pushing activity IC and OOC. It's just the past couple of weeks when a lot of folks have been hit with RL time crunches that might have maybe slowed activity a little, but I still see a lot happening. Honestly, I have no idea the last purely philosophical thread the Jedi had.

The trials have no had any impact on how active the faction is or how much leadership the faction has.

 

[Xorism]

Jubba's trial will be one of beauty, mark my words.