Jedi Master Rank Ups

[GABA]

So it has come to my attention that the trials for Master are concerning in the fact that they are a bit too critical. Understanding why they were brought into play and I support them in the fact that it brings a fun story element, but in comparing the number of Sith applying for Master and being approved, and the number of Jedi applying for Master and not being approved is disheartening.

At the beginning of this timeline, a level 2 perk was to be able to rank up, with the Jedi, yes there should and are some conditions that are applied (ie age), but nothing that 500 credits shouldn't be able to pick anything out if there was something that was concerning about the rank up. However, now it feels like members have to work extra hard to earn that perk that was once so much easier to obtain.

From my perspective, I feel like is there is a tendency to lean towards one type of personality in a Jedi when in fact we know that is just not possible to make everyone fit into one type of mold. Though the council and Jedi leadership can chose to evaluate this process however they want, I don't think what is going to be realized is the push back (lack of members wanting to participate) due to not being able to live up to an ideal "standard". No one's character is going to be perfect and I believe what the council should look at more is how as a Master they will continue to uphold the tenants and the code. Some of these more critical thinking questions should be more reserved to council positions. Otherwise, let members benefit the perk and the hard work they are putting towards ranking up and if there are no glaring issues, like secret lovers dates or dark side outings.

I want to see this faction be its best in this story, but I believe the upper end needs to look at allow more give on their end to allow members to benefit from rewards of earning credits and participating in story.

 

[GABA]

Probably should have added tags for Jedi leadership:

@Malon @Nightfall096 @Zigara @Plebometer @Loco

I'm sure there are others...but I see you guys the most! :D

 

[Eccles]

I'm in disagreement with you, @GABA. I love the strictness of the master trials as finally there's something that lives up to the same standard we've seen in canon (as far as I know).

500 credits this far in the timeline is too low a bar to just smash the Jedi Master title on someone. Sith Master imho means nothing, at least not compared to the great status the Jedi Masters had and will always have.

Besides.. being denied the title after the trials is one of the best story openers. Not to mention that we've seen way too many "Jedi Masters" doibg stupid nonsensical shit that hurt the faction more than such character ever should.

 

[GABA]

The perk of this timeline was, you can start as a Jedi Knight, you can have this experience under your belt. If 500 credits is too low, that is an Admin thing that needs to be addressed.

Members are going to do stupid stuff all the time, there is nothing stopping them and if the Sith Master rank means nothing, then that is something that needs to be addressed with Sith Leadership.

Being denied and being granted are both story openers.

 

[Wit]

I think you're forgetting the simple fact that a Jedi Master is a completely different thing from a Sith Master. Sith care all about strength, which a level 2 character has by default, hence the comparatively lax requirements to get the rank. But a Jedi Master is supposed to be the pinnacle of what a Jedi can be, not from a strength point of view but a mentality point of view. The Jedi who have passed the trials so far did not fit into any one mould, there has been more than enough diversity among them, so I don't think that argument has any validity whatsoever.

The trials ensure simply that characters that get the rank are worthy of it. Look at some of the Jedi Masters we had before the trials, the things they have done, the consequences of their actions. Any one of those traits that lead to their fall or misdemeanors would have been identified in the trials and ensured that they stayed as Knights. The simple fact of the matter is that becoming a Jedi Master is difficult because it is supposed to be difficult.

Everyone gets the level 2 perks when they hit 500 credits, but the Jedi are never in trouble because of a lack of IC powerful characters, we always have those. The issue comes from a lack of Jedi characters. The trials being difficult gives people an incentive to write good Jedi characters, and not a parade of tempted by the dark side, pseudo-grey Jedi edge lords.

If you want to be a Jedi Master, behave like one. Simple as that. And given the number of promotions we have had since the trials were introduced, I am not sure where this is coming from. Almost everyone seems to like the trials, even people who have failed them have had good things to say about them.

 

[Sreeya]

@Ecclessey has no idea what he’s talking about when he says Sith Master means nothing. It has its own set of responsibilities and prestige associated with it. It simply doesn’t have as strict of a process which is reserved for Sith Lord.

 

[Loco]

So, I'm obviously a biased opinion, but I'll give my thoughts on it.

For one, I would probably be a lot more lenient, at least personally, if becoming a Master had some major material benefits that came with it. As of right now, it really doesn't. Even with the new rewards (that will be finished soon, I promise) Masters only have access to slightly more or different rewards than Knights. The largest and most tangible reward for being a Master is simple recognition and respect for the achievement- a primarily story based reward.

Second, and I think more importantly, the trials system perfectly represents the dichotomy of Jedi vs Sith and the lightside vs darkside. It's "easier" to become a Master in the Sith, because the primary criteria are strength and activity. It represents the very core philosophy behind the darkside, which is that it represents a quicker and easier path to whatever it is you want through sheer application of power. Meanwhile, becoming a Master for Jedi takes patience and understanding of the Force, not just brute strength and the motivation to use it.

Third, I dont think it forces people into one specific type of Jedi at all, beyond the basic guidelines of the faction that all members are expected to abide by. Even with the Masters themselves, you can hardly say that Fennex and Bruce are remotely the same type of personality or the same kind if Jedi. Divergent or fringe beliefs and unique understandings of the Force, the Code, and the Tenants are welcome and in some cases may even be encouraged, as long as they're rooted in an underlying understanding of the Force that more or less aligns with the Orders guiding principles.


I'm always interested in hearing peoples opinions though.

Lastly, for good measure:

 

[GABA]

Again, as I said, I love the trials of mastery, its a great addition, but I'll explain in less words: why is there an overly critical process IC to obtain that rank.

 

[Loco]

Again, as I said, I love the trials of mastery, its a great addition, but I'll explain in less words: why is there an overly critical process IC to obtain that rank.

You mean other than the long parade of terrible Jedi the order has had to suffer this TL just because they posted enough to hit the requisite credits?

 

[GABA]

You mean other than the long parade of terrible Jedi the order has had to suffer this TL just because they posted enough to hit the requisite credits?

If they were so terrible why didn't the council intervene sooner? Which to an extent, I know there was a lack of a council, but there was enough awareness before they reached Master point that something could have been said to them at least OoCly.

 

[Loco]

Iirc, there was quite a number of comments about poor decisions and not very Jedi like behavior about a number of characters that have since fallen (to the dark side or their dooms). But since the mechanism for being promoted was a simple OOC one based primarily on credits alone, there wasn't much to be done. Also, since most of their shenanigans were done out of the eye of the council or ideologically opposed Masters, not much could be done IC either. In my experience, characters are gonna do what that player wants them to do. If that's be an edgelord Jedi, then they're gonna be an edgelord Jedi regardless of OOC comments about it.

As far as why we have an IC process now... I'm not sure what you mean. We could, theoretically, just make the OOC application review more stringent, but the result would probably be the same and doesn't give the characters a chance to speak for themselves, and has less overall involvement from the faction. I dont think one thread is a huge burden, or that the assembled member controlled Masters are any more critical than Malon or I would be when approving OOC applications. This seemed like the best way to get more interaction between different Jedi, make characters actually strive for what they're supposed to be striving for IC, and generally improve the quality of the Orders supposed leaders.


I also want to reiterate something I dont think I specifically hit well the first time around:

However, now it feels like members have to work extra hard to earn that perk that was once so much easier to obtain.

Yes. That's the whole point.

 

[GABA]

The whole point to add the IC trial thing was to prevent those who were edging on the dark side from gaining Master rank. There is not necessarily the problem of stringent outlines, everything was supposed to be a case by case basis, however, it lacks case by case basis. If the Council wants everyone to be the same, then they need to perhaps post something so everyone knows what type of Jedi they need to be, but the possible consequence is that there is going to be push back from members. There will be a lack of motivation from members because why walk into something that they know they will probably fail, why do anything to help if its not going to be rewarded.

I mean if its the case members need to work extra hard, then maybe they shouldn't have access to Master rank until they are level 3, but then we'll face an imbalance of power base, especially when it comes to completing plots and PvP participation.

No where at all am I saying get rid of the trials, I think they're fun, but its how they are being conducted and how the examination process is being completed just seems unbalanced.

 

[Loco]

Could you explain maybe how or why you think it's unbalanced?

The criteria are open for everyone to look at. The only yardstick we compare people against is the Jedi Code and the nine Tenants, which are in the faction write up, and the five broad categories of experience we consider, which is in the Trials of Mastery write up itself. We're not hiding the guidelines from anyone. Between those three things, you should definitely know what kind of Jedi you need to be.

For some characters, that may come a lot easier than others. Some level threes have failed where a fresh level two did just fine. It's more about the character than it is any arbitrary credit amounts. So, if anything I would say it's far more case-by-case than it used to be, where you just had to hit the minimum criteria and post an application.

 

[Shalken]

I think the Trials are fine the way that they are.

In the past as well as currently, people have multiple ways of having their characters tested - through combat in PvE and/or PvP and through completion of multiple missions for the Jedi and gaining them tangible assets. These are all well and good, but the strictness of the Trials adds a new challenge for Jedi players and characters to overcome: one of philosophy and worldview, where their understanding of the Force and their duty as Jedi can be tested. Until now there has not been an official method of doing so, and I think it’s honestly excellent.

The whole point to add the IC trial thing was to prevent those who were edging on the dark side from gaining Master rank.

I was not present for when the Trials were created, but I am not sure if this is entirely correct. In order to back up this claim, I suggest we take a look into canon.

Anakin was, as the Internet fondly remembers, denied the rank of master. He had been a Knight for several years at this point, and as a General in the Clone Wars, his victories and achievements were phenomenal and quite numerous. However, he was still denied, and the reason why is because he was, quite simply, not ready. His mindset, attitude, and overall character were not in the right place. Up until this point he had not fallen into the Dark side at all except for when he slew all the Tuskens, but he was by no means a regular practitioner of the Dark Side. He wasn’t blatantly about to fall by any stretch, but he lacked the qualities that a Jedi should exemplify.

I believe the Trials should be that strict because they test a Knight’s beliefs and understanding of the Force. If one should be accepted that has not dabbled in the Dark Side at all, and yet lacks wisdom or understanding, then they are much more likely to be tempted by and fall to the Dark Side. Masters are supposed to be of unimpeachable character and examples of how the Jedi should act. I’m not saying that Masters aren’t allowed to make mistakes - Vollen Shai’s mistake on Jedha is an excellent example - but they must not only be able and willing to learn from those mistakes, but also be an example to other Jedi in how to properly do so.

Becoming a Jedi Master is a high honour that comes with several weighty responsibilities, and in my opinion, such a position should not be granted or taken lightly.

 

[GABA]

In looking at the most recent trial threads, Grug and Austin are two completely different characters; I felt as though you guys had your mind made up immediately about Austin before the thread started due to number of questions given to him and how much quicker it seemed to roll than compared to Grug's trial. Grug, I can understand, I would want to make sure Cazar was serious (as serious as you can get RPing a Gamorrean). Both are committed to the order, both are not really at risk for becoming dark sided loonies, but one was granted master and the other was not because...from what I could gather, was not diplomatic enough? However, these questions shouldn't be hard, yes get them thinking, but they should all remain relevant and it should not be about right and wrong replies, but how the characters answer them.

@Shalken, I understand your example, and that's why we made the trials to keep members who are teetering on the dark side from reaching those higher ranks. If you guys had an Anakin coming through and you denied him Master, I wouldn't be making this observation about the trials.

I'm not doing this to be difficult, but I see a real issue that I think needs to be addressed or at least looked into or else I would never had brought it up.

 

[Loco]

I'm not going to discuss what the Masters debated during each trial, since the whole system is based on confidentiality for the voters, but suffice to say it is always far more important to us how the characters answer questions, rather than us looking for specific right or wrong answers, except in especially egregious cases. Grug and Austin were no different. We've got at least a page or two of discussion on every candidate who has applied so far, talking about their various answers and the attributes they represent. Most of our questions, too, have been formulated with the hope of gaining some sort of specific insight into the characters understanding- there have been no irrelevant questions.

I'm still not sure I understand what exactly the issue is, tbh. That Master is too difficult to obtain? That the process lacks transparency? That it's damaging to motivation? Up til now the response has been overwhelmingly positive, to the point that people from other factions like to watch the threads and people talk excitedly about preparing for their trials well ahead of any application... so, I'm not sure what exactly needs fixing.

 

[Wit]

I have agree with Loco, I think a better question would be what would you suggest as an alternative? If you think this system is wrong then provide a suggestion for what should replace it and maybe that'll get incorporated into the trials if that is the better way to go.

 

[GABA]

Again, I like the trials, but the underlying issue is if a character can participate in several PvPs, OOCly lead a mission pack, and can't be accused of following the dark side and STILL can't pass the trials, then requirements can probably use another look and where those requirements lie might be behind doors, because the write up gives a clear understanding of what those expectations are.

 

[Phoenix]

So, since this is something of a forum to comment on the masters trials, I'm going to drop in with my two cents. As someone with one of those failed masters from the start of the TL and a person who is also going to be going up against the masters trial in about a week or so, I'm super excited about it (whether Azar passes or not).

I love the idea of the masters trial and I think it fits with the theme of the Jedi this TL much better than a "you're active, you're promoted" theme, which is what it was before. The Jedi this TL are fairly strict overall and with the quick promotions from Padawan to Knight, it makes perfect sense that in lieu of complex Knight promotions there would be a more rigorous Master promotion.

The Jedi need to be careful about who they promote, and it's not like this is up to a single person but a panel of sitting masters, so I think there needs to be some level of trust in their decisions.

So, is it too rigorous? I don't think so. Just being in a PvP and leading a mission pack doesn't mean you're going to be a good Jedi Master (in this regard I think we can perfectly look back to Anakin, who, even if we take out the Tusken incident, I don't think was ready to be a Master despite being a remarkable fighter (PvP) and combat leader (mission packs)). Much more than the Sith even, the Jedi have a very specific philosophy, and if the Jedi Masters show through their answers that they aren't in line with that philosophy or mature enough to take on the mantle of master (or some other issue), I think it makes complete sense that they wouldn't be promoted.

 

[Loco]

Again, I like the trials, but the underlying issue is if a character can participate in several PvPs, OOCly lead a mission pack, and can't be accused of following the dark side and STILL can't pass the trials, then requirements can probably use another look and where those requirements lie might be behind doors, because the write up gives a clear understanding of what those expectations are.

Literally none of those three things are the criteria you're being judged on though.

They may help for some parts, like to demonstrate successful trials of skill, but like I said above and is described in the write up itself- Master is not at all about how good you fight or how much you post, or even just simply being "not evil".