Invasion of Bandomeer: Part 1

[GABA]

Extension requested and granted; please have posts made before 11 PM Central time, Tuesday.

Thanks!

@Valen Pelora @Ecclessey

 

[Arcangel]

Extension Correction: 24 hour extension granted from Wednesday at 3:50 AM PST to Thursday at 3:50 AM PST.

 

[Arcangel]

@Valen Pelora @Ecclessey

 

[Valen Pelora]

@Ecclessey

I know we have attempted to resolve most of our issues over Skype and have been successful. I thought we had resolved the issues that would play into your latest post. However, there are some clear issues that were not resolved. With my TimeOut approaching tomorrow morning I have outlined my concerns here and also reported the post.

• First: We have been conducting the battle and loss of troops in the standard PVP style. For example, I perform this tactical maneuver with an attempt to destroy these troops. The next person posts, here is my response and the forces I lost. This was done to avoid auto-hitting. As far as I am concerned, the auto-hitting rules of PVP still apply. Your latest post is filled with auto-hits, including at least 5 KROM battle tanks, and a litany of Mando infantry.
• Second: From my last post it is clear that the "scouts" from the front half of the circle were killed. The "side" scouts were still in place. They would have likely detected this attack, although some would have died in the processes. Again, there are instances of auto-hits.
• Third: I do not find it plausible that 2 AT-SWs (ponderously slow) made it 200 meters without any detection. Firing on the other AT-SWs would likely not prevent the KROM tanks (and other Mano forces) from noticing two low moving very large walkers.

With that being said, and our issues clearly not being resolved, I have reported the post.

 

[Eccles]

Alright, so I have no time for this today due to IRL but I will make three points here quickly.

• According to the write-up AT-SW's go 55 km/h which considering the situation is fast enough,
• Your own post says "pull the forward scouts back," and since the entire line of positioning is forward compared to the trenches and it's all made in a split decision I find it a bit metagaming to have two conveniently places group stay while their buddies burn alive. That said, it's clearly a misunderstanding and I'd be willing to compromise, but I doubt the thirty seconds makes any difference. They won't report in, the attack already happened, your PC needs to issue orders, the AT-SW's show up and already blow the whole thing.
• I made a casualty list for both sides because it'd be a chaotic mess if I hadn't. This clearly shows the intentions of my post and if you're able to make a believable counter then ofcourse the current list is scrapped and we see about listing alternative casualties.

I'm a bit disappointed that the issues with the post and the report happen so close to your extended deadline. Reading the thread and typing the above post takes about ten minutes and the report could've been resolved by now.

 

[Arcangel]

Official Ruling: Rewrite the post to eliminate all auto hits. Tactical battles are conducted in the same way regular PvP is, in that you post your actions and desired results, but cannot dictate the actual results. @Ecclessey Due to the intricacy of Tactical battles, i am giving you 48 hours from the time of this posting to rewrite, after which @Valen Pelora 's turn begins.

 

[Eccles]

Edits have been made. @Arclight @Valen Pelora

 

[Eccles]

@Valen Pelora

Well, this is where the disputes in normal PvP would certainly start. The timings I described for my actions are as such that your handwaved "deployed them this and that, redirected KROM tanks- whatever" and ignoring all my attacks is just not okay. You've ignored my attacks on your tanks, which would've made them auto-hit. You've ignored the timing of my attacks, which would not have your SuperCommando's come in time (for you have supplied no reasoning as to how and why) or in fact even alarmed the trenches in time. I specifically created the chaos to mess with the effectiveness of your scouts, which was also ignored as "they functioned perfectly." @Arclight keeps saying "the intricacies of Tactical PvP" but your units don't simply spawn in the middle of the fighting and if deployed as a rapid defense solution their path to the battle would be seen.

As I have many objections and due to the 'intricacies of Tactical' don't think the arguments and edits will be done before the 48h (or 72h) mark I think an admin ruling on your post and the outcome of the thread would be in order. As such I will report the thread tonight when I have enough time to sit down and write it all out.

 

[Valen Pelora]

I plan on making some edits. I am not sure if we are close to the 4 week mark for a ruled ending and we are only at 1 report (currently), a ruled ending likely would not be appropriate.

 

[Eccles]

Notify me when the edits are made, but as I'm less than 24 hours away from my deadline I'd like to request an extension @Arclight @Phoenix @GABA-whatevercomesbehindthattoday This will be the thread's second extension and my first.

 

[Valen Pelora]

I will be making the edits early tomorrow morning.

 

[Valen Pelora]

So the edits I made will hopefully reflect my understanding of the timing.

Sith Movements:

• The grenades are thrown at the flanks at relatively the same time as the flank AT-SWs begin firing.
• The Sith charge across the remaining space at about the same time, arriving after the flank attack.

Mandalorian Defense:

• The scouts are killed but manage to alter the flanks of the attack. This gives the KROM tanks and soldiers closer to the flanks time to react. The one closer to the middle continue to fire across the battlefield.
• The SuperCommandos are deployed at scout death but arrive before the Sith because they have less distance to cover.

 

[Eccles]

I give a full minute in between the covert flank attack and the overt AT-SW flank attack and another minute until the largest body of troops run for the trenches . I'll read the edits later today, but based on the timings in your bullet points I am still in conflict with your post.

 

[Valen Pelora]

I give a full minute in between the covert flank attack and the overt AT-SW flank attack and another minute until the largest body of troops run for the trenches . I'll read the edits later today, but based on the timings in your bullet points I am still in conflict with your post.

I must have missed the staggering. However, if the attacks are staggered I would contend that makes the defense more plausible as the forces aren't responding to 3 attacks at once.

With the Attack on Ziost upcoming we should probably try and wrap this puppy up.

 

[Eccles]

I disagree as it stacks, keeping the defenders reacting to new attacks and orders to fit a rapidly changing scenario are always issued too late. That increases chaos with the people on the ground. Add that to initial chaos of the AT-SW barrage I doubt many would be able to keep a clear head. Not to mention that once they figure out what is happening, they really are getting blasted from three sides.

But I still have to read and analyse your IC post. Wrapping this up before Ziost will most likely result in an admin decided outcome and a lessons learned on what to do with tactical battles.

EDIT: I just read the post and still see no acknowledgement to the KROM battle tanks being fired upon, just an apparent superior fighting force making short work of all attackers despite being outnumbered and battle tanks that take multi-purpose and multi-tasking to the next level. Soft-kill and Hard-kill weapons cannot work in optimal capacity at the same time, which means that while the KROM Battle Tank has a smoke screen function that doesn't mean it wouldn't block its own sensors (especially when you say it would block that of the enemy).

 

[Valen Pelora]

Since this was reported I will outline my position below.

• First, I have not requested a rule ending for the thread. Rather, with Ziost coming up it would make sense to wrap this thread up sooner rather than later. The rest of the Bandomeer threads are over and the Sith lost the battle.
• Second, the attack on the KROM tanks is acknowledged. The smoke was deployed and affected the targeting system of the AT-SWs. The KROM tanks could still fire out of the smoke. The KROM tanks are equipped with "military grade sensor" equipment and the use of smoke is specifically designed to allow the KROM tanks to continue to fire (that is how I read the write up). I confess to not knowing much about soft-kill or hard-kill RL systems but this is Star Wars, as we have dealt with many times the SW technology/physics are different then RL technology and physics. I would accept that some of the infantry and a KROM tank or two would go down, which I believe was addressed in a prior post.
• Thirdly, it is impossible for write out how every single solider is reacting to the stress around them. Some would be handling it well, some would be handling it poorly. They are all trained Mandalorian soldiers, it is fair to say they could likely handle more than one thing happening at once. I would say the same for the attacks being staggered and them having to respond. In my mind it works out like this. The flank tanks/infantry deal with the initial "sneak attack" with assistance from the SuperCommandos. The AT-SWs are detected walking in, allowing them to fire at the AT-SWs as well. The KROM tanks closer to the middle continue to fire at the AT-SWs and the incoming Sith warriors. The KROM tanks and infantry are spread out across a 200 meter line. This gives them time to handle the issue. The KROM tanks are specifically designed for more than one task at a time.
• Lastly, I agree the Mando forces would take some loss but not to the extent of the post. The forces are relatively even at the point with the Mandos having superior Heavy Armor.

 

[GABA]

This thread does need to wrap up. The other threads are done and I don't understand why this is being taken so seriously at this point given we pretty much know the outcome of the attempted invasion. To be honest this should be your opportunity to lay back, relax and experiment with your writing a little. I will have an official post ruling made this evening.

 

[Eccles]

This thread will count towards future battles for Bandomeer. Win 1 now, only need to win p-1 next invasion. So that's why it's not really that irrelevant.

EDIT: Also a serious tactical will give more insight in the currently experimental PvP system than a leisurely cPvP will do. So I don't get why it wouldn't be taken serious..

 

[Valen Pelora]

While Bandomeer may be lost for now, the future wins needed would be decreased. I think the battle still has value and we are the first serious tactical PVP that may see a real conclusion.

 

[GABA]

ADMIN RULING:

So ok, after reading this, both sides are pretty much even still in fire power and man power. First thing I’m going to address is the disputes in timing; because we’re weird and it gets really confusing when there is a lot going on, the best way to depict timing in our forum is through actions. You’ll want to recognize what is being done and react to that accordingly (if possible). Saying, this took 2 minutes or this occurs every other minute, doesn’t tell me much in give actions in regards to what and how the other person is reacting to the other’s actions.

Then there was the concern about chaos of troopers, its best to assume that in writing, we are RPing with the best of the best. The only way to determine if players (IC) were incompetent is really at the end when we decide how competent the soldiers are (bragger’s rights?) so at this point, saying “oh your soldiers are supposed to be sucking at their job right now”, no, we can’t do that. So until the end of the thread, it is a non-issue of the soldiers competency unless the writer decides to describe them as so.

When it comes to KROM and the AT-SWs really you guys are even in fire power, armor and whatnot. No one has really taken the initiative to move their tanks/walkers, and the KROM is going to have just as much trouble with targeting through the chaff as the ATSW. So regardless of the smoke screen, if they’re firing in the same direction as they were before the smoke screen really both of you guys are are dishing the same amount of damage at this point, and its probably to your benefit to have your troops meet head on.

So, at this point, both sides are pretty even in losses, no one is significantly out numbered. The flanking ATSWs may be charging but lets think of how fast we need to get an 8+ ton machine going…clearly we are not going from 0 to 55 kph in a matter of seconds. They also may flanking but they're going to be useless against the smoke screen that is still floating. The biggest thing that I think would help is clarification of timing, so validating actions with reactions. Its also safe to say just as the ATSWs are being fired upon, so are the KROMs, that’s a given, but neither are firing very good since you have stuff distracting the targeting computer.

...I think that answers everything...and if I took everything serious on the site, I would be bald. >.>