Hang Out OOC

[Eccles]

THREAD LINK

@Valen Pelora @Noctyr @Kori Buor @Apollyon @Gamov

I will be joining this thread to respond to the Distress Signal. As it concerns a super secret (read: important) research facility and by last account a force of 72 Mandalorian Supercommando's, Commander DeWitt and Echo Company will arrive tonight. As both sides have a rather significant force of NPCs (and Gamov will provide air presence with a Star Destroyer)... I want to turn this thread into a tactical battle.

Echo Company

PC: Commander DeWitt
Means of Arrival: Shuttles from @Gamov's Star Destroyer
Number of Troops: 100 regular infantry (Sith Troopers)
Planet of Origin: Coruscant​

Facility Defenses

PC: Sevarin Telluria
Means of Arrival: Facility Personnel already in place
Number of Troops: 50 regular infantry (Sith Troopers)
Planet of Origin: TBD​

Mandalorians

PC: Aethon Kwast, Viz'Senra & Theran Fett [?]
Means of Arrival: Three ships already on the ground [?]
Number of Troops: 72 advanced infantry (SuperCommando's) [?]
Planet of Origin: Mandalore [?]​

Imperial Mission is simple: Secure the Facility.
Mandalorian mission stays the same with addition of evading capture/death.

Tagging @Arclight @Phoenix in case thread re-designation needs approval. Note that the sides aren't evenly matched (Section IX) and the low number of security personnel is aimed to reflect the casualties in the first few posts.

I'd also like the write-ups for Mandalorian NPC units. I believe they're still waiting to be approved in the Hall of Leaders..

//THREAD HIGHJACKED

 

[Valen Pelora]

Here comes the wet the blanket. Unless the the admins rule/decide the thread is a tactical PVP rather than a skirmish, I am going to oppose this being designated a tactical. As the starter of the thread, this was never intended to be a tactical battle but rather a traditional PVP (skirmish). I believe the thread creator has the choice to designate the thread as a tactical battle, dog fight, platoon combat, or w/e. The 72 NPCs referenced by @Kori Buor were for 'flavor' only, a practice that was common in past traditional PVP threads.

The posts so far have none of the aspects of a tactical battle. The start of a tactical should look like the OP in the battle of Ithor tactical (however short lived it was). There have been no mass commanding of troops. No listing of troop values. No planet of origin. The PVP has not involved the 4 players only. Theran was ordered to retrieve the data instead of an NPC force being sent. The Mandos don't even have their NPCs approved yet. Unless the staff rules otherwise this thread was intended as a skirmish, conducted as a skirmish, and should stay a skirmish. Admittedly, with the new rules I am uncertain about switching a type of PVP mid-thread. However, that does not seem like a good practice.

The Mando NPCs have not been approved. Commandos (like what we have here) are the advanced infantry NPC being worth 3 units. That would make the unit count 150 to 216.

 

[Gamov]

As the starter of the thread, this was never intended to be a tactical battle but rather a traditional PVP (skirmish). I believe the thread creator has the choice to designate the thread as a tactical battle, dog fight, platoon combat, or w/e. The 72 NPCs referenced by @Kori Buor were for 'flavor' only, a practice that was common in past traditional PVP threads.

Then there should have no mention whatsoever of Mandalorian NPCs if the original intent of the thread was to function as a traditional PvP. Much less NPCs that aren't even approved. That's poor practice, and no excuse to deny the Empire a balanced and reasonable response to an attack on one of their holdings within their territory.

I doubt the Mandalorians would hesitate to throw NPCs against Imperial players were the roles being played in the reverse.

 

[Valen Pelora]

Then there should have no mention whatsoever of Mandalorian NPCs if the original intent of the thread was to function as a traditional PvP. Much less NPCs that aren't even approved. That's poor practice, and no excuse to deny the Empire a balanced and reasonable response to an attack on one of their holdings within their territory.

I doubt the Mandalorians would hesitate to throw NPCs against Imperial players were the roles being played in the reverse.

I won't speak for the Mandalorian leadership. That type of thinking would mean no one should use NPCs in an open thread unless they are approved.

This would mean you could never have NPCs with you ever in any open thread because it may become a tactical. Using the Battle of Ithor as an example, the other threads are skirmishes but have NPCs present. The only interaction that matters is the interaction between the PCs. The NPCs have no bearing on the success or failure of the mission. The same is true for this thread.

The NPCs were not used against the Sith PC in any way or to obtain the data. If @Apollyon, @Kori Buor , and I were to lose to the current defender PC it would be over. NPCs have no effect on if our missions is successful or not. The appropriate and balanced response in a skirmish setting would be to produce two other PCs to engage in combat.

Clearly, this is an issue that needs to be cleared up by the staff.

 

[Eccles]

The Mando NPCs have not been approved. Commandos (like what we have here) are the advanced infantry NPC being worth 3 units. That would make the unit count 150 to 216.

As stated in the OP I am aware they're advanced infantry and purposefully gave the Imperial side less troops because of the opening posts depicting killing of Imperial NPCs and the fact that Echo Company is merely a single company that happens to be in the vicinity instead of an organized response to a call for reinforcements.

If it's ruled against becoming a tactical battle, that's fine. I believe, however, that allowing for a transition between battle systems naturally could greatly improve the way we experience Player-versus-Player combat as opposed to giving a scenario like the thread you referenced in the battle for Ithor. Too often are we forced to go into debate whether or not NPCs can or cannot be used or whether it is or isn't suicide because "Thousands of ships in orbit will murderize you anyway" and I think that including a company of armed NPCs (even just as flavor) should open up a thread to become a tactical battle.

As for the format, I believe I used the same you did for the Tactical Battle for Ithor and included number of troops, their origin and mission. If I have not been thorough enough with presenting the scenario, I do apologize, but it is my honest opinion that if we were to try out a natural transition in battle systems this thread and this moment would be a rare and excellent opportunity.

I am editing heavily in this post, but the last thing I'd like to bring up on the matter is that throwing in three experienced single combat PvP'ers against a faction that has trouble finding a single good PvP'er and saying the only balanced solution is matching the amount of PvP'ers in single combat is factually wrong. Balancing this thread would be done by making it a tactical, something we are all new to.

 

[Valen Pelora]

I will report the thread so that we can get an official ruling.

 

[Apollyon]

Main problem here is a time limit for traditional pvp was already agreed upon per an ooc note in the thread and as shown by the vms on my wall. 3 posting rounds until the defenders delete the data or the aggressors take the data. While I am not opposed to a tac battle, adding in another objective turns this thread from clear cut to muddied. On top of that, the existence of the npcs haven't been utilized against the opposing player. If they had I would agree, this is a tac battle 100%, but they haven't, so this isn't. On top of that unless we have someone willing to draw up a map of the compound so we aren't bullshitting our way through this place then we are literally deciding about shit on the fly.

Honestly, outside of ONE post were it is mentioned about them BEFORE a Sith replied to the thread they haven't been used at all. I respect you @Ecclessey but the excuse of "Npcs are there so this is a tac battle" feels flimsy. Who is to say when that happens? What are the guidelines for it? If someone brings ten npcs with them into an open thread does that justify a tac battle? Are they now facing a city of rent-a-cops?

This thread started as an open, turned into a skirmish, it has a set time limit of three posting rounds, I think it should stay that way.

 

[Eccles]

Perhaps you all misunderstand me. In my OP I'm asking to make this a tactical battle, reasons for which I have tried to outline in my second post. If no one wants to make this a tactical battle then that's that. The report that has been made, to my understanding, is there to clear up whether or not a thread with NPCs could be turned into a tactical battle at some point during the thread, instead of strictly having to be agreed upon at the start.

 

[Apollyon]

I still think my examples ring true, unless a rule set is developed for the fluidity between the two types of pvp they should be separated. Don't get me wrong, I understand your concept and I think it's wonderful if both sides understand it could flow into that but this isn't the case. Without rules to dictate and unless we make this an ask thread, we could literally continuously pour resources into the thread. "We are getting low on troops, time to call for reinforcements" and boom a destroyer shows up with 100 more Bobs on board. Until rules are developed for this type of idea, I think we should stick to our guns and play by what we have.

Also, sorry for misunderstanding you and if I came off like a dick. Wasn't the intent, getting coffee now

 

[Eccles]

Tactical Battles are in their Beta phase, meaning that the exact set of rules you desire are in the process of being formed by actually doing tactical battles. We cannot wait for the rules if we cannot try out what works and what does not. You guys seem very set against making this a tactical, but the point stands that we need to find the line of what works and when does it work. I believe this thread could, seeing the experienced participants, become a great experiment and tool in that regard.

 

[Valen Pelora]

I have reported the post. We should try and keep the OOC clean until a ruling is administered.

 

[Noctyr]

Hi uhh....newbie here...

Not sure if this is worth any real salt in the conversation, but my intent here was just to have a cool story and stir the pot a bit since it doesn't seem like mant people are taking a stand for the Empire....If it's too much of an OOC headache to figure this stuff out I will be happy to work something out so that we can focus more on the storytelling, and not the technicalities behind the battle itself.

 

[Phoenix]

At this point in time, tactical battles are being limited to main battles. Even if they weren't, switching from a traditional PvP to a tactical battle mid-way through the thread would likely require consent from both sides. Just having NPCs in a thread for flavor ≠ a thread being a tactical battle. The thread will remain as a traditional PvP

@Valen Pelora @Noctyr @Kori Buor @Apollyon @Gamov @Ecclessey

 

[Eccles]

The dread of that limitation!

So just to clearify: Even with consent of both parties, switching from traditional PvP to a tactical battle (or the other way around) is not allowed?

 

[Apollyon]

I'm out right now but when I get home I will reply!

 

[Valen Pelora]

Hey @Noctyr! I have some issues with your latest post that I am outlining below. In my mind, the order of events is as follows:

• Viz is firing the heavy repeater down the hallway
• Your character steps out from behind adjacent hallways.
• No Mandalorian's take any actions to interrupt your character stepping out and 'striking a defensive pose.'
• Rather the Mandos being to fire the moment you strike that pose.
• More repeater fire, 3 A140 bolts, a rocket, and 2 A140 bolts all fly the moment your character strike the pose.
• We are about 25-27 meters from your character. This means everything arrives at your characters position in less than a second.

Here is my issue. You need to dive back behind the other hallway, generate a Force push strong enough to knock the rocket into the ceiling, and unleash that Force push. That is a lot to do in under a second. It's roughly like .75 seconds. I don't find that very realistic.

 

[Noctyr]

Hi Valen! Respectfully I disagree because of the following.

- They'd have to transition to target Sev the moment he got out of cover. I'm an IPSC and 3-gun competition shooter and Army Infantryman IRL, and my fastest time to draw and fire two shots with a pistol, one into the chest and one into the head at 7 meters was 1.27 seconds. And that's on a good iteration without the stress of combat... The only realistic way to get under 1 second is to fire from the hip at the target, and 25m is a bit difficult to do. With a rifle I was thinking that a realistic response to a 25m target would be more akin to 1-1.5 seconds to line up the shot, then it'd take about half a second for the shot to actually arrive on-target since it's a blaster bolt we're talking about.

- My character was a sidestep away from the corner he emerged from. All it'd take was another sidestep to get back into cover. Add in the fact that my character is focused on dueling and speed, and I think 2 seconds is enough to slink behind cover while reacting relatively quickly. It's not like my character is a lumbering juggernaut hampered by heavy armor. He's a magic space ninja.

- I was under the impression that a force push didn't take much to accomplish relatively quickly, seeing as in some of the Star Wars duels I've seen, force users are able to incorporate force pushes throughout their movement to catch their opponent off guard.

In any case, not sure who makes the final call, but I'm just here for a good story. What would you consider a more realistic outcome?

 

[Valen Pelora]

We have mostly covered this on Skype but I have outlined the major talking points below.

1. We did not interrupt his appearance. Meaning this part of your post holds true. "He linked his communicator to the base’s loudspeaker system as he began to take a few steps forward. His voice reverberated louder against the din of what gunfire still filled the air. “The data is already gone, Mandalorians. Your arrival is in vain.” Sev said, not an ounce of hesitation or cause for doubt in the inflection of his voice. It was a lie of course- meant to discourage them from pressing the offensive deeper into the base. Sev entered a defensive stance, with the intent to dodge or deflect most of what the Mandalorians had in store for him." This means your character is not just a 'sidestep' away from the junction. He stepped out of the junction and then started to walk forward.
2. @Kori Buor fired after you started walking, as seen here: "suddenly the Sith walking into the corridor right into the line of fire from Viz's repeater, intending to strike a pose and give some typical arrogant Sith rant."
3. Everyone (mins Theran) has their rifles in their hands and is already firing down the hall. It wouldn't take long for them to aim and fire, plus they are doing it while you walk. So, they fire after you take the stance. Meaning you have from the time of firing to effectuate a dodge. As indicated in my post, Theran fires at the same time as @Kori Buor's character.

I think based on Skype you are going to make some edits. Please tag us all her when they are done. If you don't plan on editing we will likely need a ruling .

 

[Noctyr]

If it's alright with you guys, could I get a bit more time? Till Thursday?

@GABA-wan Kenobi

 

[Noctyr]

@Arclight @GABA-wan Kenobi @Phoenix