Ground Adasta

[Aberforth]

I beg to differ. There is still a minimum level of "details" that should be expected to allow for those "tactical movements". The positioning of your troops shouldn't be left to your opponent's interpretation which I feel is the case here. And the sum of the angles of a triangle should still add up to 180 degrees.

The angle of fire is very important to determine the overall trajectory of the missiles which definitely impacts a strategy when defending, while their composition is equally important to understand the damage they might cause (missiles =/= missiles).

It might not have been what has been done until now, but as none of the tactical battles have had a clear ending, I don't feel bound by those examples.

 

[Ulysses]

I thought I was clear with my troops' movement: they were hugging the shore and advancing to engage the far turret at extreme range. I was precise in terms of weapon range rather than meters because I couldn't find the information that a Jedi would have IC. By contrast, your troops were spread along the perimeter, without any specificity and your garrison have just charged through a gate in the turret that has just appeared.

Your map is precisely what I was picturing and yes, I miscalculated the hypotenuse in my head - 440 is the correct figure. But that is still outside 400.

In terms of defining missiles, the AT-ST only has one variety of missile - an anti vehicle concussion missile. For angle, I'll admit I hadn't considered the impact on defensive tactics, but surely the only level of precision needed is whether it's direct or indirect fire.

I think, on balance, I was always going to have to spring your trap, without being meta, and that your troops would know where the intersection of your firing ranges would be, and so your walkers probably would be positioned in the right location. My main concern is being attacked from three fronts from the apex corner, which I still think is out of range, and from the charging troops from a phantom gate.

I don't think we need an admin yet, do you?

 

[Aberforth]

If I edit out the attack from the infantry troops coming from the fortress and I have only one missile from my landward turret AT-SW aiming the ground closest to your first AT-ST. Would that be an acceptable compromise to you?

 

[Ulysses]

That seems good to me :)

 

[Aberforth]

Done.

 

[Aberforth]

@Ulysses I have some issues with your use of the Force in your latest reply. Using the Force to deflect 25 missiles (13 on one size and 12 on the other) without any concentration seems a bit excessive. Missiles are traveling at high velocity which means they would require a significant push for their courses to be completely altered. In addition, you say your Jedi used the Force on the missiles while they were at the zeniths of their trajectory which would be approximately 200 meters away from your character and NPCs. Needless to say, I have a hard time reconciling that defence with the guidelines regarding the use of the Force in PvP.

 

[Ulysses]

Is it not 10 on each side? And that's assuming that they continue to fire when fire is returned - I reckon my missiles would be in the air at the same time as your third salvo?

The reason for the interception being at the zenith is that the impact is at right angles to the trajectory and so only a little impulse is needed to push the missiles off course - a little bit like how a stone, when thrown flat, can be deflected by the surface tension of water. Since we don't mind where the missiles go, only above us, it isn't a particularly intricate ploy. Since each team has 8 Jedi NPCs, they could take it in turns. I would therefore suggest that the distance is the only controversial aspect and that that can be overcome because they would expect missile fire in a siege like this.

 

[Aberforth]

You are right about the number of missiles. I went with the one prior to my edit.

You seem to be forgetting something, the missiles are fired in pairs (there are two Missile Launchers on an AT-SW). By the time your Jedi PC (the only Jedi who is looking at the city) realizes the missiles are coming his way, he would have very little time to use a Force push himself, let alone warn the others about the incoming attack. If we compare them to their RL counterparts, the missiles' velocity must be around 200 to 250 m/s at their zenith otherwise they would have problem remaining airborne. As the pairs of missiles are fired consecutively, in two to three seconds all of them would have been launched... Under those circonstances, you would most likely not have time to reposition your cannons to intercept the other missiles either.

Again, the feat you are trying to accomplish, deflecting ten (twenty one in total) missiles with a velocity of over 200 m/s at a distance of 200 meters within three to six seconds would most likely be impossible for a PC, let alone a group of NPCs and unless you are agreeable to taking considerable damage, I think we will require a ruling.

You could try affecting a smaller number of missiles instead of all of them: I can see you protecting one or two AT-STs on each side, but definitely not all of them.

 

[Ulysses]

I don't think that 'considerable damage' is on the cards, in any event.

1. I still contend that, with the aid of military sensors, a team of jedi would notice missiles coming from a position 45 degrees off their current axis - especially as it would be the obvious threat source. From there they are merely encouraging the missiles to overshoot, not completely deflect. Telekinesis is their speciality after all.
2. If the neat push is disallowed for being rushed, then I imagine that a haphazard push would result in the missile spinning end over end and so falling short.
3. Even if the missiles do hit their target, heavy armour is designed to withstand this kind of assault and we are engaging at extreme range.

My missiles are not intercepting yours - a jedi using the force would be easier than intersecting the two trajectories. They are aiming at your walkers. My point was merely that the speed with which your launcher could reposition would be matched by mine.

I guess my fundamental underlying motive is wanting to resist the position where one walker can do significant damage to 5 at extreme range, before they have chance to respond. Firing from a hidden position only affords you so much advantage, because I have not come any closer than if I would have had I seen you in the first place.

 

[Aberforth]

1. Military sensors wouldn't help at such a close range. It is literally a matter of two or three seconds before the missiles hit your walkers at the time they are fired. As for the angle adjustment, at most my launchers would have to rotate 2 to 5 degrees total to fire at all of the walkers. All of yours would have to rotate 45 degrees. There is no doubt in my mind that all of my missiles would have been fired before you could retort.

2. Following that logic, most would still hit. As I pointed out, you could have chosen to protect some of your walkers at the detriments of others, but you maintain that you want to protect all of them from any damage. In addition, the idea that an object with a velocity of at least 200 m/s would go spinning after a "haphazard push" totally ignores the principles of inertia.

3. You are neglecting the fact the Duranium-tipped Armor-Piercing High-Explosive missiles are specially created and that I would be striking at the flank of your walkers which would necessary cause more damage than if I had been attacking their front, Besides, I am in no way pretending that it should be the end of your walkers, but they would suffer significant damage...

Anyhow, this discussion is stalling. I will request a ruling to address the following points:

1. As written, can the Jedi NPCs Force-push the 22 incoming missiles fired at the AT-STs (in the previous post), while at their zenith (approximately 200 meters away), enough so that they would all miss their intended targets? If not, is it still possible for the Jedi NPCs to affect all of the missiles' trajectory, once they are closer, with a haphazard push that would result in all of them spinning and missing their intended targets?

2. Have all five rounds of two missiles for both AT-SWs (in the previous post) been fired before the Jedi troops have had a chance to notice the incoming attack, adjust their position and start firing at the AT-SWs located on the outer perimeter of the city?

 

[GABA]

Hey guys!

After reviewing Ulysses and Abe's posts, here is what is concluded:

@Ulysses it is not possible for the Jedi to Force push those missiles away. In fact with the range of the battle field, a more reasonable response would be your Jedi noticing them and calling for everyone to take cover. There is definitely not enough time for the Jedi to stop what they're doing and focus on object that's traveling about 300 m/s to try and advert them to another location, not to mention how messy that would be if everyone is trying to focus on a missile and don't know who is doing what. So what you can do is take cover to minimize casualties.

Then as for dispute over the time over for everyone to readjust positions, to reiterate my point above, missiles travel fast, they're going to be impacted before making any significant movement or distance from the target point.

So what needs to be changed is the validation of those incoming missiles, the best choice in a situation is damage control and then regroup.

 

[Ulysses]

@GABA the Hutt thank you

Can I briefly clarify that "what they are doing" is sitting in a transport, probably expecting to attract missile fire of that kind.

 

[GABA]

I mean, you're on a battlefield, you should be expecting missile fire anytime regardless, but you can have your peeps recognize it incoming and then detail causality and how you go about containing the damage.

 

[Ulysses]

@Aberforth
Edits made

 

[Ulysses]

@Aberforth
I think you're jumping the gun with your auto hits

1. I do address the mass driver cannon: you state that the mass driver cannon was after the missiles. Therefore my reactive missiles interrupt the cannon, even if they don't interrupt any of your missiles. In any event the tanks have moved from where you were firing at.
2. Where do I find that your missiles are clingy? I'm afraid I've never been inside an armoured vehicle when a missile hits and the armour holds. I'm sorry if I used the wrong noise, but I was under the impression that the missile exploded on impact. If my armour cannot withstand missiles at it's strongest point, then your original 10 shots were unavoidable auto hits. I admit my attempt to avoid them was on the ambitious side, but I was trying to get around the situation where he who shoots first wins.

Thanks

 

[Aberforth]

I am not "jumping the gun". You have consistently refused to take any damage thorough this whole battle. If I get auto-hits, I am going to make them count as is my right. Had you accepted to take some damage in your previous post, my response might not have been so drastic.

1. I suggest you reread your post and the ruling: my missiles would have hit your AT-STs before you had a chance to move against my AT-SWs which in turn means they would have started firing the Anti-Armor Mass Driver Cannon. You do not address this incoming attack in any way. As for the Tanks moving, per the write-ups, they are very slow and protected only against light and medium arms fire. They wouldn't have had time move enough so that the fires from the cannons wouldn't hit them.

2. Per your own post, I get that the missiles are stuck on the flanks of the AT-STs due to the impacts. You haven't written them falling to the ground and they have not exploded. Perhaps, you had the impression that the missiles had exploded, but it is not what you wrote. An explosion doesn't result in a simple "thud". In any case, per the write-up, Duranium-tipped Armor-Piercing High-Explosive missiles were developed specifically for warfare against other Heavy Armor, they would just scratch your outer armor however durable it might be. There were so many acceptable defences you could have gone for that would have limited your damage, but instead you insisted on trying not to take any damage.

 

[Ulysses]

This is only your first salvo, there hasn't been enough time to be consistent about anything.

I'll admit that I'm feeling my way through this, but I'm working on limited info. I tried an imaginative defence, which was disallowed: fair enough. So I had to fall back on the obvious defence of armour. I never said no damage, just that the armour held.

I don't understand how your missiles are so fast and yet mine are so slow (both pods on the vehicles and then the missiles themselves in the air). The ruling only said that I had to accept the missiles hitting, not that I had to wait for you to fire your sixth shot.

I don't know where you've got very slow from - I read light and maneuverable for hit and run tactics.

If you think there's a more realistic level of damage, please let me know; but I know that it isn't my entire army in one round of firing at extreme range.

 

[Aberforth]

I think we should start asking ourselves how we want the thread to end. There are only five days left and from what I understand we live on drastically different timezones, which means one or two additional rounds of posting. At the rate things are going, I don't see this thread ending any other way then in a draw unless one of us concedes. If we agree on that, maybe we could start working toward a conclusion that will be somewhat satisfactory to the both of us (ergo both our PC surviving).

 

[Ulysses]

As I understood it, we have three weeks from your initial post - so we have a week, a whole third of our time. I appreciate the time difference doesn't help.

However, I think we should really give this a go - I'm keen for tactical battles to work, but I think it means no quick answers.

I'll say for one that - especially at this stage in the timeline - I'm not here to get character blood: so if I win, even if your character is in the thick of the battle, I won't oppose them crawling out of whatever rubble they may be in to slink away. I think it would be a shame if the only characters on this site were the undefeated ones. I would welcome a similar statement, but my offer is not contingent.

However, I am all in to win this battle for the faction. I still believe that my tactics are the right ones and that you are trying to get an easy win that is not available to you.

 

[Aberforth]

Very well. It's three weeks from the start of the thread. I look forward to see how you intend to take the Great Citadel in two posts.

I definitely have no intention to kill your character.

Now to get back on your issues with my post. The major difference between your missiles and mine is that my AT-SWs had been positioned in my previous post. Your AT-STs or at least their missile launcher have to rotate 90 degrees to be able to fire at my AT-SWs. It gives my AT-SWs more than enough time to destroy your tanks before you would have a chance to retaliate and that's not considering the explosion of the missiles on their flank. They wouldn't be able to fire accurately with missiles exploding on their side.

At any rate, the rules are clear. You did not address the fires from my Anti-Armor Mass Driver Cannons anywhere in your post which means it is a guaranteed autohit for me. If your maneuvering had dodged the fires or if you intended your attack to stop mine from happening, you should have written as much in your post.