Feminism and Gender Equality

[Tristyn]

I'm definitely a feminist.

But that usually isn't a problem here in South Africa. I see more woman working in offices, schools, supermarkets, hospitals than men. The way I saw it a few years back black people were chosen first, then woman, then white people. Still is I think, there are little to no white men working at a super market or a petrol station from what I've seen lately. Lol

 

[Pernicious]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/charlesclymer/5-things-more-likely-to-happen-to-you-than-being-f-fmeu

Now show me on this fedora where those evil feminists hurt you.



No one said that men shouldn't discuss the topic. It's a simple fact that since the topic is primary about women that their voices should be louder than ours. To go back to the Black Lives Matter movement the black voices speaking about the oppression they face should be more important than the white voices for and against them. If you aren't a member of an oppressed group then you cannot truly speak about the things that group deals with. The most you can do is support them when called upon. Though even that has its pitfalls because no group has a singular homogeneous voice. Really the best course of action is to shut up and listen.

Now as for the claim that men cannot be raped, that is a product of the patriarchy not of feminism. If a feminist espouses that view then she is actually supporting the very entity she claims to be against. The goal is not to make rape accusations equivalent to proof, but rather to ensure that every rape accusation is taken seriously and that measures are taken to guarantee that the victims are not further victimized by the search for the truth. As far as toxic masculinity, it is a real thing, and it hurts men as well as women. It leads to things like the aforementioned inability of men to be raped, it prevents men from acting on any emotion besides anger, and it leads to violent repercussions against any who dare live contrary to it. The whole idea of masculinity and femininity is so backwards and disgusting that it really should be phased out altogether. Men don't and shouldn't behave in certain ways just because they are men, and vice versa for women.

Also, men can't be victims of sexism as men are not the oppressed group. They can only be victims of the patriarchy that claims to protect them. This is much the same as the fact that in most countries racism towards white people is a myth. Just because someone was mean to you and hurt your feelings doesn't mean you were a victim of sexism/racism. Rather those two things exist on an institutional level and work in insidious ways like the wage gap, shady hiring practices, and outright denial of services that should be basic human rights. For instance, women are less likely to be taken seriously by doctors, and black people are more likely to be murdered by the police.

Misandry does exist, but my favorite quote concerning that is "men hate women for the things they haven't done for them, women hate men for the things that have been done to them". Women's hatred of men doesn't exist in a vacuum and you can almost guarantee that if a woman has hatred for men in general it is likely because of the way men in her life have treated her. Whereas misogynists tend to hate women simply because no girl was ever willing to sleep with them. Then the misandrist protests and insults while the misogynist goes on a shooting spree.

Lololololololol this is a perfect example of why modern feminism is ridiculous. You absolutely can be sexist towards a man.

You don't want equality if you think it's ok for women to discriminate against men, but not vice versa.

 

[Law abiding heretic]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/charlesclymer/5-things-more-likely-to-happen-to-you-than-being-f-fmeu

Now show me on this fedora where those evil feminists hurt you.



No one said that men shouldn't discuss the topic. It's a simple fact that since the topic is primary about women that their voices should be louder than ours. To go back to the Black Lives Matter movement the black voices speaking about the oppression they face should be more important than the white voices for and against them. If you aren't a member of an oppressed group then you cannot truly speak about the things that group deals with. The most you can do is support them when called upon. Though even that has its pitfalls because no group has a singular homogeneous voice. Really the best course of action is to shut up and listen.

Now as for the claim that men cannot be raped, that is a product of the patriarchy not of feminism. If a feminist espouses that view then she is actually supporting the very entity she claims to be against. The goal is not to make rape accusations equivalent to proof, but rather to ensure that every rape accusation is taken seriously and that measures are taken to guarantee that the victims are not further victimized by the search for the truth. As far as toxic masculinity, it is a real thing, and it hurts men as well as women. It leads to things like the aforementioned inability of men to be raped, it prevents men from acting on any emotion besides anger, and it leads to violent repercussions against any who dare live contrary to it. The whole idea of masculinity and femininity is so backwards and disgusting that it really should be phased out altogether. Men don't and shouldn't behave in certain ways just because they are men, and vice versa for women.

Also, men can't be victims of sexism as men are not the oppressed group. They can only be victims of the patriarchy that claims to protect them. This is much the same as the fact that in most countries racism towards white people is a myth. Just because someone was mean to you and hurt your feelings doesn't mean you were a victim of sexism/racism. Rather those two things exist on an institutional level and work in insidious ways like the wage gap, shady hiring practices, and outright denial of services that should be basic human rights. For instance, women are less likely to be taken seriously by doctors, and black people are more likely to be murdered by the police.

Misandry does exist, but my favorite quote concerning that is "men hate women for the things they haven't done for them, women hate men for the things that have been done to them". Women's hatred of men doesn't exist in a vacuum and you can almost guarantee that if a woman has hatred for men in general it is likely because of the way men in her life have treated her. Whereas misogynists tend to hate women simply because no girl was ever willing to sleep with them. Then the misandrist protests and insults while the misogynist goes on a shooting spree.

Right here
View attachment 2687

 

[Enzo]

Its not really feminism that is a problem as a whole its the rabid third wave feminist's spreading misinformation, aggression towards men and cherry picked statistics to whine about a false misogyny and a rape culture that does not (I am using this term loosely, I am not implying rape does not exist in the west I am implying it not as rampant as feminist's claim) exist. They could use their movement to tackle to real oppression of women in countries like the middle east and Africa with its sharia law and genital mutilation.

Plus that whole white, cis gendered privileged thing we are supposed to feel guily for..*shrug*

 

[+SpaceJesus+]

Spoiler

Merriam-Webster
Full Definition of sexism. 1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women. 2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex.

The Free Dictionary
Sexism
1. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
2. The belief that one gender is superior to the other, especially that men are superior to women.

Oxford dictionary
Sexism
NOUN
Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Yes, women have been the ones to experience sexism the most and on the largest scale. However, the notion that sexism cannot exist because only one group is "in power" is incorrect. No where in defining sexism does a group have to be in power. That is just a made up concept designed to obscure obvious issues. Honestly though, who cares if we can properly define it as sexism? I certainly don't. The problems don't go away depending on what we define them as.

And I highly doubt that the issues presented can be boiled down to male patriarchy. That is a contributor, but not the sole source. After all, there are extensive studies showing the complete disrespect of male genders as a whole, and that issue is escalating not because of male patriarchy but because women keep perpetrating the hatred of me, much to the dismay of their other, more rational female colleagues. And this whole time I am getting from this argument is "these problems don't matter because I think other people have it worse." Beside, Most of the time debates over the causes of these things really just turns into an argument of shifting the blame. I don't see why we can't all just admit everyone is part of the problem and then try to fix it together.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Women can be sexist towards men in the sense of prejudice, but rarely - if ever - is there genuine discrimination from women to men. Because genuine discrimination (i.e. NOT "my precious feelings have been hurt") is structural, and the structures of our society are very male-centric.

Pernicious, look up Emma Watson's movement called He For She. I won't say anymore since I don't want to bias your thinking towards it but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised, and you'll see that feminism is far more than your anecdotal observations.

Doing a great job by whining on tumblr and not using tampons. Making the world a better place, one false rape accusation at a time.

Should men be defined by the shit that they post in comments sections? Because if so, then men are human garbage.

 

[Green Ranger]

Dudes who have no actual understanding of feminism trying to shit on it ITT.

 

[Diva]

I am going to venture a guess that none of the women of the forum are posting here because to even read most of this discourse could prove completely discouraging. I have refrained from posting/ or even reading other political threads here for similar reasons.

First, I doubt any of you know what the term 3rd wave feminism actually describes. If you are going to use what is essentially an academic term like that you should be able to describe, in at least vague detail, what 1st, 2nd, and even 4th wave feminism are, and what some of the differences are between them.

Second, the rhetorical insistance that there is always some kind of middle ground is a fallacy, and most cases here are skewed largely toward demonizing feminism itself. I get the sense that the extent of research or experience regarding this is facebook listicles, satirical news sources, clickbait editorials, or any combination thereof that are designed to inflame you, or those around you, with the intention of purpetuating a conversation that nonesense, but generates content and add space. You are all active writers, you are capable of more intelligent thought than they are telling you.

Third, anecdotal evidence is absolutely not submitable as a reflection of the world-at-large. If you honestly want to participate in any discussion, especially civil rights issues, and ESPECIALLY civil rights issues that do not directly pertain to your liberties...(i.e. men discussing women's issues, white people discussing racial* issues, etc) you begin by listening more that you talk. Two ears, one mouth. Try phrasing your discourse in the form of a question, at least off the bat. It does wonders.

I cannot speak for any person except myself, especially an entire group that is not the same gender as I; but if I were to guess why a woman would not post on this thread, I imagine one reason might be that most of these comments are designed to disclude them from the conversation before it begins. I also guess that nothing here is insightful or new to them in terms of what men have/will/do say to/around/about them on a regular basis, and it isn't their job to try to explain something to someone that shows no real interest in it, and is actually dismisive from the onset.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

I am going to venture a guess that none of the women of the forum are posting here because to even read most of this discourse could prove completely discouraging. I have refrained from posting/ or even reading other political threads here for similar reasons.

First, I doubt any of you know what the term 3rd wave feminism actually describes. If you are going to use what is essentially an academic term like that you should be able to describe, in at least vague detail, what 1st, 2nd, and even 4th wave feminism are, and what some of the differences are between them.

Second, the rhetorical insistance that there is always some kind of middle ground is a fallacy, and most cases here are skewed largely toward demonizing feminism itself. I get the sense that the extent of research or experience regarding this is facebook listicles, satirical news sources, clickbait editorials, or any combination thereof that are designed to inflame you, or those around you, with the intention of purpetuating a conversation that nonesense, but generates content and add space. You are all active writers, you are capable of more intelligent thought than they are telling you.

Third, anecdotal evidence is absolutely not submitable as a reflection of the world-at-large. If you honestly want to participate in any discussion, especially civil rights issues, and ESPECIALLY civil rights issues that do not directly pertain to your liberties...(i.e. men discussing women's issues, white people discussing racial* issues, etc) you begin by listening more that you talk. Two ears, one mouth. Try phrasing your discourse in the form of a question, at least off the bat. It does wonders.

I cannot speak for any person except myself, especially an entire group that is not the same gender as I; but if I were to guess why a woman would not post on this thread, I imagine one reason might be that most of these comments are designed to disclude them from the conversation before it begins. I also guess that nothing here is insightful or new to them in terms of what men have/will/do say to/around/about them on a regular basis, and it isn't their job to try to explain something to someone that shows no real interest in it, and is actually dismisive from the onset.

I like you.

We're friends now.

 

[Law abiding heretic]

Dudes who have no actual understanding of feminism trying to shit on it ITT.

Admins white knighting instead of reviewing the species boards ITT

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Admins white knighting instead of reviewing the species boards ITT

Well, to quote someone who posted in the species board:

the staff are just bogged down with technology applications. It will get reviewed trust me. Just wait a little

You should listen to that dude, he seems like he knows what he's talking about.

 

[Enzo]

Oh Brandon and his mad fedora tipping skills.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Oh Brandon and his mad fedora tipping skills.

I actually had to look that up.

I'm getting old.

 

[Law abiding heretic]

Well, to quote someone who posted in the species board:



You should listen to that dude, he seems like he knows what he's talking about.

Well, to quote someone who posted in the species board:



You should listen to that dude, he seems like he knows what he's talking about.

Meanwhile nothing is being done

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Meanwhile nothing is being done

We're getting there. You just need to take your own advice and be patient.

And this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Some of you will probably notice that Law abiding heretic is now temporarily banned. Since the latest posts in this thread are about what he said regarding the species approvals, and how this could easily be mistaken as a ban for criticizing admins, I wanted to post here and forego my usual "we don't talk about bans" rule to clarify that this was not the case. The reason for the ban was because we just gave him an infraction for this post:

Doing a great job by whining on tumblr and not using tampons. Making the world a better place, one false rape accusation at a time.

It was his third infraction, which automatically leads to a 24 hour ban.

This post is completely inappropriate. It's abhorrent, it's sexist, and a really good example of why many women don't like to participate in online communities or online discussions.

This type of comment won't be tolerated.

 

[Tsunami]

I don't really get the whole equality argument. I think it's common sense that a woman should be paid the same, treated with respect, not looked down upon because of gender.

However, there are certain aspects of life in which equality is just not possible because there are diffrences between men and women. Which isn't a bad thing, in fact it's a great thing.

I feel like some people who are radical feminists actually hinder the arguments made by women who do have a valid point.

There are also men who are very old fashioned, who could be deemed sexist. For example, a man should never hit a woman in my opinion but if I was treating them equal to men, I should have no issue laying them out correct?

Just my two cents.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

I don't really get the whole equality argument. I think it's common sense that a woman should be paid the same, treated with respect, not looked down upon because of gender.

And also equality of opportunity. Which is an important part of the equation. Because no one is saying men and women should be EXACTLY the same as individual people. It's about treating women equally to men, and ensuring that they have the same opportunities as men. There should be nothing that a man can pursue that a woman can't also pursue.

There are also men who are very old fashioned, who could be deemed sexist. For example, a man should never hit a woman in my opinion but if I was treating them equal to men, I should have no issue laying them out correct?

No, because you shouldn't be hitting anyone.

That's called assault.

 

[Nor'baal]

As with all political movements there are good sides and bad sides, so before I go on let me provide a more balanced example of such groups:

Islam:
Bad: Allah is the greatest, death to the west style lunacy. This leads to vast tensions between countries, terrorism and a vicious circle of hatred and anger.
Good: Open minded, inclusive discussion about the contribution Islam has had to art, science, mathematics and history.

British Conservatives:
Bad: Using the excuse of 'Family Values' to hide Homo-Phobia in addition to using protection of our borders to allow for racism and fear-mongering.
Good: Promoting entrepreneurial concepts and driving up the standard of living, through wealth creation and the generation of new jobs. Economic Liberalism.

Environmentalism:
Bad: All oil companies are wrong, which I will tweet about from my iPhone, made using Oil and other resources produced from such companies.
Good: Making people see, through educated and well thought out, respectful discourse, the need to protect our environment and providing solutions to our energy needs.

With that in mind, I shall move to my next point. Feminism is a social movement, much like LGBT (or LGBT+ as it is now), or Black Lives Matter, that believes something that in the modern world I think everyone should believe in - all people are born equal. To this end, I do not say I am a feminist, I say ''I believe in equality.''

Some Feminists are bad, of course they are, there are - as shown above - bad parts to every social movement, but that shouldn't taint the entire group. I'll give an example here:

In October of 2015 I was walking into a Conference, and someone jumped in front of me holding a Feminist sign, they screamed ''Fascist Murdering Prick, Patriarchy!'' at me. In my hands I was holding a leaflet that said ''Equality, Diversity, Liberty'' and was on my way to present to a group of young people about the inequality between men and women in China. The lady, who for very good reasons, was angry, did not see that - she only saw a man in a suit, walking into a conference, and took that anger she had out on me.

I didn't then turn around and thing ''Screw you, I now hate all women.'' I instead thought, as should anyone who sees a large explosion of anger, ''Why are they angry?'' (I didn't ask her, as she had a lot of friends who were by this time shouting 'Scum!' at me and my friends.)

In conclusion: No I am not a feminist, I am not a member of the Black Lives Matter Movement, I am a believer in Equality however, and I think that is a belief in which members of the various groups can, and should, all share. International Womens Day is something we should continue across the world regardless of those minority groups on either side of the debate who would seek to hijack it for the wrong reasons.

A wise man, whom I quote above (and indeed, he is wise) once said people would seek to hijack things "for the wrong reasons".

Ironically - that has been proven by the comments of Law Abiding Heretic and a few others.

I don't dislike anyone on this forum, expect for Brandon (who is a naughty boy), but I would say - respectfully - that people need to learn the difference between 'debate' and 'argument'.

In a debate you enter into the discussing with an open mind, willing to defend your own beliefs but also to change them.

In an argument you cover your ears and scream at each other.

There is a lot to be learned from this discussion - for example, Misandry is a very useful opinion changing word, Fedora Tipping is....something, and that sometimes, miscommunication and the way in which extreme minotorities in social movements act can taint the image of the mine mynas a whole.

Feminists: Good.
Extreme Femenists: Bad.

I see nothing wrong with feminism, but like all extremism, feminism when taken to an extreme damages the wider, more liberating movement.

 

[+SpaceJesus+]

I have issues with anybody hitting anybody as if it's a passing thing, but that's just me. I think that's what most people kind of forget in these arguments. We probably shouldn't be hitting spouses or other people in general just because we're mad. Violence is the last resort, but in the case that it may both parties should be treated equally.

And I agree, DarthNoodley, there is a bit of hostility that needs to be curbed in any amount of discussion like this as to not scare away the people that really do have valuable insight into this. This is an emotional issue. We should seek to be civil, which is difficult when laying out charged opinions. We all need to realize that feminism, in the actual definition of what it is, is not hostile, nor is it discriminatory against men. I think most of the anger here is caused, again, by misandry masquerading as feminism. You want equality? Make men and women complimentary halves of society? Respect the rights of both to better society? Find a bandwagon for me to hop into and I'll ride off with you into the sunset. I just don't like people trying to steal feminism from those who actually know what it stands to support their own prejudices.