'State of the RP' feedback thread

Elijah Brockway · Dec 26, 2016

Green Ranger said:
Liking the feedback so far, everyone. Just one thing, but saying 'PvP is good/bad' could probably using some expanding on, since it's kind of a massive thing, so if you could, try to break down aspects of PvP into what is good and bad and why you think that is and stuff. A few people have done that and the insight's pretty fascinating so far (Elijah, for example - thanks for the memoirs. o_O) and there's a lot that can be learned from specifics like that, so I'd love to see more of that.

thanks luv

it might've been a bit ranty (because I have a lot of pent-up rage and aggression but no really good way to get it out, which generally leads to an unhealthy amount of fantasizing about violence, anyways that all leads into what I post in discussions like this sometimes), but it seems to me like it was still coherent

Roen · Dec 26, 2016

I'd like to float around the idea of revising the PvP stuff.

The Living Daylights · Dec 26, 2016

Outlander said:
The issue is that it's incredibly divisive. There's a vocal group for it and against it.

Personally, I don't believe in eliminating PVP - I think it's pivotal to cross-faction RP in the galaxy. I just think that if it was more coordinated, more prepared, with rules designed to accommodate a more holistic take on PVP than a technical one, then it'd be much better off than it is now.

Raydo · Dec 26, 2016

Green Ranger said:
Liking the feedback so far, everyone. Just one thing, but saying 'PvP is good/bad' could probably using some expanding on, since it's kind of a massive thing, so if you could, try to break down aspects of PvP into what is good and bad and why you think that is and stuff. A few people have done that and the insight's pretty fascinating so far (Elijah, for example - thanks for the memoirs. o_O) and there's a lot that can be learned from specifics like that, so I'd love to see more of that.

Also don't forget the rules and the particulars of the rulesets since I've heard a lot about that before now but I feel like it could be discussed a bit more in this thread.

Again, keep up the feedback, this is interesting reading so far. I'll try and assemble my own thoughts when I'm able.

I forgot to mention this is my first post, but I thought we ~~finally~~ got you to quit? Ugh.

Jabonicus said:
Two distinct groups shit on each other quite consistently whenever a discussion like this pops up. It typically ends in the thread being locked after one side throws a few more pounds of shit at the others than the others can. Examples can be found in places such as the thread for "allow more warnings before bans" or literally the thread that just got locked minutes ago.

I don't want to name names, but the way people are treating one another is sickening.

The only options to combat this behaviour is to call people out (This can be done in a kind way or in private - Preferably both.) and report it to the staff. I am not saying I know all the goings on the site and stay away from arguments but I can't think of one scenario where the staff was shown someone being abusive and it was not dealt with.

Sreeya · Dec 26, 2016

Elijah Brockway said:
Somebody giving you suggestions on stuff you can do to try and have fun =/= somebody expecting users to fix everything that's wrong with the site. That's a false equivalency.

Anyways, my views on the matter: I like PvP. Writing against other players in a competitive manner is fun to me, and I've liked to do it for a while. Death enabled, no death, w/e. PvP itself is fun.

The thing that annoys me about this site and PvP on this site is not the PvP itself, and it's not the people that enjoy PvP either, because they're generally fun to write with.

It's all the people that like to come on and complain about how PvP is seemingly "the only method to get anything of worth done on the site" or how "PvP causes so much toxicity" and yadda yadda. (If you feel like I'm about to get rude, I'm sorry I'm blunt, but if there's one thing I've learned in all my years of introversion and rarely being able to get involved in a conversation that involves multiple people, I have to be blunt or nothing I say gets acknowledged anyways. kthxbai)

PvP doesn't cause toxicity. I don't think the PvP rules either cause toxicity. They're perfectly fine if you're willing to work within them, if you're willing to be reasonable about what can happen to your character, and you're willing to let a character go if you're taking part in PvP or you're willing to communicate with people to work stuff out so that you don't lose your character. A lot of people I would otherwise call fine, reasonable adults on this site turn into petty, squabbling children when it comes to PvP, and act as though any possible wound to their characters is a wound to themselves. People fight tooth and nail OOCly to prevent any harm coming to their characters when that's just implausible in the extreme if we want to be semi-realistic about any of this, and end up barely posting in the PvP itself, alongside rarely ever writing to their character's level (or they make some sort of mary sue-esque character and couch it well enough in deceptive language that the FLs/AFLs still approve it because they miss what has happened. Or they're just lazy sometimes [looking at you, Prudii]). Then some people get way too into arguing about what would be actually feasible or plausible with somebody who ignores them completely and don't actually take steps to solve it, which might seem to a lot of people what PvP is like in general, but from what I've seen looking at OOC threads, that's generally not the case, people are just too inclined to view the other writer as the enemy and the worst person in the world and end up not working with them. (As for the whole bit in the middle about actually arguing about realism/plausible actions, I'm guilty of that myself. whoops.)

Then, because people refuse to actually work together or be civil with each other in PvP (aside from, again, the people that generally like PvP, who are a whole hell of a lot better about this), that leads to a lot of toxicity between players, and that's what leads to people going and complaining about PvP so much. And both of those together are what end up making PvP look so intimidating to newer players, is my guess. Because so many people jump into PvP but make it terrible for themselves, then they find other people who agree with them, and they get into a massive circlejerk across the forum talking about how terrible PvP is on this site and how toxic it makes people without recognizing that, generally, it's not the PvP that makes people toxic. It's the fact that people are so terrible at separating IC from OOC that they resort to shitty attitudes and childish insults with each other in the PvP, and then they self-reinforce their opinions of PvP in general (and, oftentimes, the people they've PvPed against even if those people have the same attitude) by sitting in a corner and regurgitating all of that hatred into their mouths/chatboxes and swallowing it back over when they end up talking to people who disagree with them and they just mentally go "nuh-uh PvP is bad." And then they find more members who agree.

Cue that massive circlejerk I mentioned. Like, really, it's as bad as parts of Reddit get sometimes, and I'm past the point of really being amused by it.

As for the feeling that PvP is the only way to do things - it's not. And the Jedi and the Sith now both have rankings that have been instituted to showcase the fact that, hey, there are places where advanced characters and writers can aspire to without having to PvP a lot, like the Sith Immortal and the Jedi Master. Factions have missions a lot of the time that aren't conflict based, that you can sign up and do. Factions leaders should probably focus on promoting missions like those to people who don't want to PvP. You can always do fun RP threads within your faction to help train people, just to showcase how active you are in your faction. Training isn't necessary this timeline, but if you and another person are willing to do it, it's fun. You can go and make stories about stuff that's happening while battles are happening over a planet - either another battle with somebody else, nice and pre-determined where you can show off your big, uh...writing skills without fear of anything happening to your characters. (Believe me, I understand liking a character/all your characters so much that you don't want to risk them. And that's fine. Nobody is actually pressuring you into PvP, generally, and if they are, just tell them off for being a prick who is ignoring you and how you say you don't want to PvP because of that. All I'm here to say is that PvP isn't all that terrible most of the time, and it doesn't incite all the toxicity that happens between members, it's the members themselves that do that.)

There are a ton of opportunities to do non-PvP stuff. I've been taking up a bunch of them because I'm ridiculously tired of the massive amount of people on this site who both take part in PvP all the time and also complain about how toxic PvP is and how terrible it is when they're generally the thing that's being toxic (fighting against any harm coming to their characters at all, rules-lawyering all the time, playing the 48-hour rule as much as they can and getting pissy when the same thing is done back to them, etc. etc. etc.), not the act of PvP itself.

As for other stuff: I've had my disagreements with the admin team and how they do things. I still do. That's nothing new to most people (including the admins, I'd imagine, if not, well, ****, I'll have to find my list of disagreements again), but I still like y'all as people, and I know that you generally do take the views of the community into account when you're deciding stuff (for example, removing the 1-main-faction rule, finally). So I'm not going to join in on the other circlejerk that happens which is "the admin team is bad and is ruining swrp!!!1!!11!" You're welcome, Gaba. (Also, obligatory white-shorts reference because making fun of Brandon is my life's mission.)

I generally agree with the idea that the way missions and battles are done in regards to the territory squares themselves (like Sith attacking Coruscant right now, sorry@my team) should be reversed so that you have to actually do it square by square, not just randomly jumping around all over the place. I could think of a ton of fun ways to drive some story action and what-not if we made it so that our fight was legitimately based around lines drawn in the sand across the galaxy itself. But at the same time...

I don't particularly think the way the fight for the galaxy is set up right now is lacking in opportunities to story and such either. It just requires creativity from people, rather than an almost tunnel-vision-esque focus on "gotta get dem squares tho." There's always opportunities to RP stuff in squares/worlds that are experiencing these battles. It can be in the middle of battle and you're trying to organize a civilian evacuation, and you can have a harrying escape but get away alright because #SingleThreadPlotArmour. You can be somebody who was left behind and is now a fugitive of the new government being set up, trying to get away. You can be somebody trying to provide humanitarian aid in the face of the damage caused by the wars. You can RP fun political bullshit. I dunno. Come up with some bloody ideas and do them, don't sit around and moan.

As for the last bit I want to touch on, the Force vs. Tech issue - I agree that this needs worked on, but I think Boli has done a good thing with his FAIL system or whatever it was actually called when he posted it in a suggestion thread (sorry boli my memory is of the bads for names'n'shit). It reflects the spirit of what he was going for originally in this timeline a lot better than where things have devolved to, with the ridiculous rules-lawyering and paramount character bunnying that goes on where somebody can use the Force to lift a pear and then their opponent is claiming that they're now fully exhausted and can't use the Force (obvious exaggeration is obvious), which is really depressing considering I've seen the admins fall into it to (Phœnix, Arclight, don't let me down). That, and considering a lot of the whole "Technology developed specifically to counter the Force" game that has popped up specifically in this timeline was started by a tech mod, and now it's gotten to the point that technology trumps the Force so much that Force-using characters carry a ton of technology purely so that they remain competitive in PvP (and then we get to a whole lot of the pointless PvP bickering because people are toxic but refuse to admit it and try and change themselves, and etc. etc. etc.), and that's just really depressing.

tl;dr: A lot of the site is pretty fine, but if you ask me, about 65% of the member base (the toxic people who cause problems but refuse to admit to it and try and act better) could be banned right now and the site could actually run better if it weren't for the fact that the other 35% is conscientious and would protest that.

(man, that was long for a tl;dr.)

P.S. throw your hatred at me for my comments. I crave it.

Couldn't have said it better myself. No, really, that's too much typing. But srsly, got all my thoughts out right there.

Elijah Brockway · Dec 26, 2016

well you know how much I type when I feel like actually responding to something that involves the ----

on second thought I won't finish that sentence because I might get in trouble.

Berlioz · Dec 26, 2016

Green Ranger said:
Liking the feedback so far, everyone. Just one thing, but saying 'PvP is good/bad' could probably using some expanding on, since it's kind of a massive thing, so if you could, try to break down aspects of PvP into what is good and bad and why you think that is and stuff. A few people have done that and the insight's pretty fascinating so far (Elijah, for example - thanks for the memoirs. o_O) and there's a lot that can be learned from specifics like that, so I'd love to see more of that.

Also don't forget the rules and the particulars of the rulesets since I've heard a lot about that before now but I feel like it could be discussed a bit more in this thread.

Again, keep up the feedback, this is interesting reading so far. I'll try and assemble my own thoughts when I'm able.

Excluding the Interpersonal reasons behind why I'm against current PvP (in terms writer vs. writer / projection & unwillingness to lose sort of stuff), I'm against one of its mechanics. The detail battle between writers can be a bit irritating in the sense that it becomes a bit of a possibility search. You're combing through what they said and trying to account for the possibility of them having missed out on a potential action. As a mechanic, that can be rather tedious.

A solution idea, maybe, would be to attempt to limit the amount that can write in a PvP thread. X number of characters maybe, there-in excluding the possibility of writer vs. writer sort of stuff and keeping the action fluid, since your characters then're going to be spent simply describing what your character's doing, without necessarily leaving enough of a narrative-opening that can be exploited by the other writer.

Jabonicus · Dec 26, 2016

Raydo said:
I forgot to mention this is my first post, but I thought we ~~finally~~ got you to quit? Ugh.

The only options to combat this behaviour is to call people out (This can be done in a kind way or in private - Preferably both.) and report it to the staff. I am not saying I know all the goings on the site and stay away from arguments but I can't think of one scenario where the staff was shown someone being abusive and it was not dealt with.

~~I can think of one.~~

Passive aggressive pants off, I will be doing this in the future, and I can only hope it will be effective.

Arcangel · Dec 26, 2016

Berlioz said:
A solution idea, maybe, would be to attempt to limit the amount that can write in a PvP thread. X number of characters maybe, there-in excluding the possibility of writer vs. writer sort of stuff and keeping the action fluid, since your characters then're going to be spent simply describing what your character's doing, without necessarily leaving enough of a narrative-opening that can be exploited by the other writer.

Im not entirely sure what you mean. Care to elaborate further?

Kori Buor · Dec 26, 2016

Berlioz said:
Excluding the Interpersonal reasons behind why I'm against current PvP (in terms writer vs. writer / projection & unwillingness to lose sort of stuff), I'm against one of its mechanics. The detail battle between writers can be a bit irritating in the sense that it becomes a bit of a possibility search. You're combing through what they said and trying to account for the possibility of them having missed out on a potential action. As a mechanic, that can be rather tedious.

A solution idea, maybe, would be to attempt to limit the amount that can write in a PvP thread. X number of characters maybe, there-in excluding the possibility of writer vs. writer sort of stuff and keeping the action fluid, since your characters then're going to be spent simply describing what your character's doing, without necessarily leaving enough of a narrative-opening that can be exploited by the other writer.

So, are you saying you don't like that a writer who has more skill in PvP can beat someone because they have a better understanding of PvP mechanics or that you don't like that some people use a lot of words to describe and hide their actions? I'm a little confused as well.

Sreeya · Dec 26, 2016

Berlioz said:
Excluding the Interpersonal reasons behind why I'm against current PvP (in terms writer vs. writer / projection & unwillingness to lose sort of stuff), I'm against one of its mechanics. The detail battle between writers can be a bit irritating in the sense that it becomes a bit of a possibility search. You're combing through what they said and trying to account for the possibility of them having missed out on a potential action. As a mechanic, that can be rather tedious.

A solution idea, maybe, would be to attempt to limit the amount that can write in a PvP thread. X number of characters maybe, there-in excluding the possibility of writer vs. writer sort of stuff and keeping the action fluid, since your characters then're going to be spent simply describing what your character's doing, without necessarily leaving enough of a narrative-opening that can be exploited by the other writer.

I mean...I'd say the best pvpers on here write the least in their pvp posts already.

Elijah Brockway · Dec 26, 2016

Kori Buor said:
So, are you saying you don't like that a writer who has more skill in PvP can beat someone because they have a better understanding of PvP mechanics or that you don't like that some people use a lot of words to describe and hide their actions? I'm a little confused as well.

both can be a problem, tbh. people don't write to the limits they give their characters when they actually give their characters limits, because they just want to win, so they rely on writing skill and don't try and actually RP. Which is on the people, not the PvP.

And for the latter, that's definitely been a problem before. I remember Boli telling a guy to stop doing that early in the timeline, lel.

Green Ranger · Dec 26, 2016

Not gonna lie, I miss telling you all to cut the bullshit. >.>

Kori Buor · Dec 26, 2016

Elijah Brockway said:
both can be a problem, tbh. people don't write to the limits they give their characters when they actually give their characters limits, because they just want to win, so they rely on writing skill and don't try and actually RP. Which is on the people, not the PvP.

And for the latter, that's definitely been a problem before. I remember Boli telling a guy to stop doing that early in the timeline, lel.

Fair point to the former. But that shouldn't be used in an argument for "why PvP sux" IMO. Although, I'm sure it will be.

As for the latter, from what I've seen that's generally frowned upon, though in the past when I had to PvP against such people I could always PM them for clarifications.

Prudence · Dec 26, 2016

Green Ranger said:
Not gonna lie, I miss telling you all to cut the bullshit. >.>

Master gave Prudii a sock

Prudii is a free troll now.

Berlioz · Dec 26, 2016

Arclight said:
Im not entirely sure what you mean. Care to elaborate further?

Sure. For example, say we're at a 200 character limit. Both've posted up to know as to their thoughts, painted a vivid picture which I'm too lazy to conjure at the moment for an example, and are ready to start fighting each other.

Player A vs. Player B, player A writes a Jedi named Derp and B writes a bounty hunter named Fish.

(Context: Derp and Fish're my go-to variable names when I program.)

Player A writes:

"Derp draws his his blue lightsaber, taking a moment to stare at Fish as they both stand in the open. Derp runs at Fish, swings at his upper right shoulder." (157 characters)
"As Derp was running, Fish reached for his blaster- barely pulling it out in time as Derp came close, rolling to the side and firing a shot as the saber singed his armor." (171 characters)
"Derp's saber met nothing as the bounty hunter made his roll, caught in surprise by the hunter's reflexes. A blaster bolt struck his armored chest, knocking him backwards." (172 characters)

Player A was willing to take a hit, and neither writer tunneled into the other while keeping things fluid. Granted, this is a very brutal character limit, but it's just an idea for now.

Kori Buor said:
So, are you saying you don't like that a writer who has more skill in PvP can beat someone because they have a better understanding of PvP mechanics or that you don't like that some people use a lot of words to describe and hide their actions? I'm a little confused as well.

I dislike that writers're fighting writers rather than characters fighting characters. That's the crux of the issue for me. By applying a strict character limit, you essentially force yourself to merely write your character, and not write the movement predictions that there-in project the writer's intentions onto the other writer. I've RP'd in games before, and that's essentially how they do it. It still boils down to a "reasonable" degree where both players need to have the maturity to accept blows and losses, as that's still an issue that's just inherent to the nature of competition. I get that, and I get that in some cases people're going to be unreasonable and a moderator will need to step in and make a judgement call. It happens, I've had to do that before.

I confess, that 200's a bit of a brutal character limit, but I'm just spitballing ideas.

Edit: Also, by applying a character limit, you're there-in eliminating the countless ways a player character can "expect" the actions of the other character, limiting the cheese some.

Elijah Brockway · Dec 26, 2016

Kori Buor said:
Fair point to the former. But that shouldn't be used in an argument for "why PvP sux" IMO. Although, I'm sure it will be.

As for the latter, from what I've seen that's generally frowned upon, though in the past when I had to PvP against such people I could always PM them for clarifications.

I asked the guy to at least include an OOC in his posts about what he's actually doing, although from what I know of him, I'm reasonably certain he was just trying to hide his actions and hope I or somebody else would miss them and so he'd win by that route. Basically just scummy behaviour. I doubt most people are like that, though.

Prudence said:
Master gave Prudii a sock

Prudii is a free troll now.

Cut the bullshit and get back on topic Prudii.

Raydo · Dec 26, 2016

I have seen people in the past ask others who couldn't help but be wordy highlight their actions. This seemed to help in those situations. Again, the best way to problem solve is just be upfront with the other person and treat them like a partner in the thread and not an opponent.

Phoenix · Dec 26, 2016

Hey all,

So @Green Ranger asked for expansion on the "PvP is good/bad" issue, so I figure maybe I can oblige? There's no doubt that PvP is a contentious topic on the site. Look at this thread and you'd be an idiot not to see it (sorry if someone didn't notice). And unfortunately enough (can't believe I'm saying this, what's wrong with me?) I agree with a lot of what @Elijah Brockway said.

The issue with PvP doesn't lie with the rules laid out for PvP it's with people's view of it. If you've been around this site for any time at all, you'll know that I like PvP and am a supporter of it overall, but even I have times when I get burned out on the arguments associated with it because it is often accompanied by rampant OOC bickering, often about petty things. So I think we have to ask what the root of that is? Well, I don't think we can blame the system for that because just as I've had horrid OOC fights, I've had extremely pleasant fights as well. If it's the system, then you wouldn't have it producing both good and bad. That means that it must be the people involved that are causing the issue.

So, then, what is the root attitude behind these divisive actions? I would contend that (there may be other reasons as well) there are two major attitudes that are the issue in PvP: 1) People cannot/will not/do not separate OOC from IC and 2) People become WAY too attached to characters that they are putting into combat.

Now I am expecting point number 2 to get some extremely resentful comments, so before you start angrily slapping your keyboards and raging about how stupid I am, hear me out.

*Insert unpopular opinion puffin* Remember guys and gals, at the end of the day these are fake characters on a Star Wars fanfiction site. The world is not going to come to an end if one of them dies. People become so overly attached to their characters they are unable to realize that it is possible to write a new character with entirely new story opportunities. And I say this as someone who is quite attached to some of the characters that I have made.

Now, obviously we don't want to recycle characters at every turn or churn out characters whose stories we have absolutely no investment or interest in, but if you have some favorite character that you absolutely can't live without, then you probably shouldn't put them in combat. I'm not saying just fill your character slots with what people would term "PvP characters" but I've seen the archive request thread be used often enough for non-death related archives to know that you don't really care that deeply about every character you make. I'm not telling you to throw your characters away, but remember that even your and my favorite characters aren't real people and life will go on. People get so absorbed with not letting a character die that they will do nearly anything (including bashing OOC on their opponent) in order to resist.

That attitude OOC also kind of leads me to my other point: separating OOC and IC. I think some of this may have been slightly improved with the crossover in main factions, but the writers of the other faction aren't actually your enemy. Again, FANFICTION website. You don't have to be enemies with the people you fight, even if you're trying to outwit them. For instance, I think that every person that either has killed or really tried (and nearly succeeded) to kill my characters on this site has been a friend of mine OOC. And we're still friends. At the end of the day, if you lose a character, yeah, it's a bummer, but there are always new stories to write.

Ok, unpopular opinion over, sorry, no TL;DR

Elijah Brockway · Dec 26, 2016

Phœnix said:
Hey all,

So @Green Ranger asked for expansion on the "PvP is good/bad" issue, so I figure maybe I can oblige? There's no doubt that PvP is a contentious topic on the site. Look at this thread and you'd be an idiot not to see it (sorry if someone didn't notice). And unfortunately enough (can't believe I'm saying this, what's wrong with me?) I agree with a lot of what @Elijah Brockway said.

Not to detract from the thread, but I think it's prudent to point out that he actually loves me and he and I agree on a lot of stuff and that I don't appreciate that thinly-veiled attempt to separate himself from me.

it's just like what all me 'friends' did in school, where they didn't want me hanging out with them where other people could see because i wasn't "cool enough"

;__;

'State of the RP' feedback thread

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