Other Public Rules Proposals

Discussion in 'General OOC Chat' started by Yuan, Aug 28, 2019.

  1. Ediwa

    Ediwa Godspeed

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    Having the senate is already a good move toward the right direction. Now war, that is what star wars is about. It should remain in various forms as it is. You can impact it already, there should be just something about what you achieve other than recoloring a small part of the galactic map.

    I don't feel like it's hard to earn AT items. You can gear up quite fast. You can do alliance missions and for plots factions also reward you. Tech plots are fun, they can add a lot to your character and it's relations, maybe you wouldn't even get to know a lot of people if you weren't doing them. It psychologically feels good to earn stuff.

    The way you described mods handling your situation sounds unprofessional from their side. I agree that shouldn't go like that, once approved it shouldn't be taken away. I never had trouble with my plot submissions. From my experience any comments I got from their side was fair and made sense, they were not working against me, they were working with me. Sometimes it just takes too long to get a reply, but I keep in mind half of the staff resigned last month.
     
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  2. Braden Drake

    Braden Drake King of the Castle

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    In response to Ulysses I think some of this can be done through plots, mainly to allow some form of moderation to keep it in line. Otherwise leadership characters would be in constant threads with people challenging them in one way or another. The plots don't have to be super complex perhaps only one or two threads long and potentially have a level/rank limit, mainly to weed out those who just want to make trouble for trouble's sake.

    EG1: Thread 1, Ulysses dissatisfied with the Jedi Council, meets with other Jedi to discuss their proposal, Thread 2 he meets with the council. Ulysses must be a Level 2/Jedi Knight to start this plot.

    EG2: Thread 1, Ulysses thinks the current Dark Lord is to passive and wants to bring the war to the republic, he meets with others to plan their confrontation. Thread 2, he confronts the Dark Lord. Ulysses and any accomplices must be a Level 2/Sith Crusader to start this plot. (A higher level requirement as this is a dictatorship over a council.)

    These two examples are just to have those confrontations, if they wanted to forcefully change the outcome, they would need more work and more investment in the characters/plots. Examples can be given if people want to discuss it further.

    In reply to Ediwa, teching up is not the issue I think its more of that AT is really pushed towards PvP or boosting your Ship which is kind of null and void from what I have seen. And most of the plots are aimed towards getting such tech so the people can then fight better in PvP. I know when I was looking for Plots at the start of the timline I struggled to find stuff to plot towards which wasn't Tech because my character didn't want tech. This is actually part of the reason I created the Lore items I did to give other people stuff to plot towards which wasn't just Tech.

    I think either opening plots up to allow characters to gain other items apart from tech would help. These are just a few examples;

    1. NPC's for your little Squad/Domain
    2. Ships for your little Squad/Domain
    3. Credit boosts (EG a character focused plot, which isn't gaining anything material but you get rewarded with some extra credits for your level.)

    The first two are aimed towards both Independents and my earlier post about overthrowing someone without PvP. Allowing someone to write their way into power.
     
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  3. Dread

    Dread Lots of Love

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    I just want to make it clear that I don't think that the retroactive rejection was unprofessional. There is no rule against it and every plot is handled case by case. Believe me that if there was a rule against it that staff wouldn't have ever done it, but I do think it was harsh. That was my point in bringing it up; I believe the system has been and is a little too harsh. Both which has likely added to the dip in activity and burnout of some of the membership.
     
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  4. Gamov

    Gamov That Guy

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    Full disclosure, I have not read every single post prior to my making this post, so apologies if I miss or reiterate any points previously made.

    That said, this is a bit more of an observation/declaration of support for a move away from the current system than anything else, but I have felt in more recent timelines the site has become disconnected with the spiritual heart of Star Wars as we see it portrayed in the films. What I mean by that is what we see in the films isn't necessarily what we're currently getting out of the site as it stands.

    For example, let's take Solo. The films tells us the origins of the Han we all know and love from the OT, replete with all the action, adventure, drama and suspense one would expect to find in the origin story of our beloved smuggler. Now let's say someone wishes to emulate Han's story in RP form. With the current system, there are a slew of rules that actively prevent someone from being able to tell that story. What the current system gives us is a text based KotOR.

    Sure you can be Han. You have the potential. The same way you had the potential to be Revan after completing dozens of mediocre side missions and level grinding your way to greatness. In my humble opinion, that's not what Star Wars is, and not what draws people to want to write epic Star Wars stories of their own.

    This is why I feel so strongly we should disband anything resembling a 'level system'. It's prohibitive by its own virtue, and takes what should be freeform RP and turns it into a DnD style grind. In my opinion, what we ought to be doing is putting more trust in members to collaborate and work together, rather than surrounding them with a heap of rules and level restrictions. You might be surprised how smoothly things can move if you give people the freedom to breathe and collaborate with their fellow writers to weave the stories they want to tell.

    Are there going to be people who want to go overboard? Of course. Do I think we necessarily need to worry about that with the site in it's present state? Not exactly.

    I may not be overly active here these days, but I do observe, and the common thread I have seen persisting throughout the discussion, both within this thread and elsewhere, is a feeling of being trapped. Members feel bogged down not because they're disinterested in writing their characters or their stories, but because it feels like a chore to do so. There are just so many road blocks and hurdles that even making the smallest of strides in a character's story and development takes far more effort than it reasonably should for a freeform RP site.
     
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  5. Sunfrog

    Sunfrog Suprememe Overlord

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    I agree and I know it requires trust but I think if people were to go overboard then there are enough sensible people to point out to that person that maybe their character is overpowered or point an admin in their direction in the same way that if someone wrote their level 1 Jedi with like Master level abilities in threads I would probably say something to someone because no one likes an overpowered character except the person with the overpowered character which is only a minority of people.
     
  6. Yuan

    Yuan Dominuce of Megadeuce

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    I feel like something needs to be said here, and I do hope that Gamov and the others who have voiced similar opinions do not take this the wrong way. I mean it with the utmost respect, and not as an attack. But I feel like there is some disconnect on the definition of what it is we are doing here (the site as a whole).

    So a fan-fiction site is a site where various writers come together with a set or semi-set prompt and write their own individual stories. All the stories on the site may take place in the same universe, same timeframe, maybe the same scenario, but maybe different characters and events. The big difference is that all the stories told are standalone and completely unaffected by one another. What happens in story A has completely no bearing on story B. It is just that one writer's take.

    An RP Site is a community that comes together and tells a singular story in which every participant has an equal part in. How is that accomplished without total chaos? How do we make sure that every member has an equal opportunity to contribute to the story? We do it by laying out the ground rules first. We all start at the same place (not geographical, but rather we all have access to the same tools, techniques, and assets as far as story devices that we can use). Then, when we start the story, we all progress in the same way, we all have to achieve the same goals in order to accomplish our overall dream. Now, obviously, there are many differences. Not everyone has the same end-goals. The guy who's goal is to open up a small cantina on tattooine is not going to have to accomplish all the same things that the guy who wants to become the supreme dark lord of the sith is going to have to accomplish, but if they both want to reach the same point on the map, then they are both going to have to travel the same distance. They can take different routes (their stories can be completely different) but they both have to start and point A and make their way to point B in order to arrive at point B. That is the only way that we can make sure that everyone involved has the same opportunity to make an impact on the story. Because we are all supposed to be writing the same story, just different chapters. The things one person does in this universe are supposed to be visible by and affect every person RPing in this universe. You character may not actually be affected by some little thing they are not around to see, but the things that someone else's character is doing, are supposed to be happening in your character's universe too. Your character may just not be directly affected by it or aware of it.

    So, I'm not trying to be rude when I say this, but to some degree, we don't want someone who watched Solo and wants to just jump in and write their own Solo story to be able to. Yes, you can tell your own version of the Solo story here on this site. You just have to construct it within the confines of the universe that already exists here that we all created together as a community. And I know that everyone is saying "Within reason! We should be able to do whatever we want Within Reason!" But how do we determine what the definitive definition of "Within Reason" actually is, when every single person on the site is going to want to do something completely different and in a completely different way? The only way I see is to have this comprehensive and structured set of rules and guidelines which everybody follows to achieve the story that they want. Otherwise it becomes chaos, and there is really no way that all of our characters can exist in the same universe.

    I'm no one important. I'm not a site owner, admin, or mod of any sort. I'm just a member like many of you all. I've only been around about a year which is less time than a number of y'all. What I have to say matters no more than what any of you have to say, so if I sound like I'm preaching or lording over anyone, I apologize, it is not meant that way. I simply like to elaborate on all my points. I hope they come across in a friendly diplomatic fashion with maybe a touch of debate rather than harsh or disrespectful.

    We're talking about a lot of topics in this thread, but I feel like the question that keeps being referred to "Game vs Story" is not actually accurate. I think the real question as far as the structure of our endeavors here is more akin to "Community RP vs Individual RP". And I am strongly for Community, with rules and guidelines and structure that we all write under together.
     
  7. TWD26

    TWD26 Member

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    Characters like that never got approved and had to be edited, we also have rules currently that can still be put in place such as "No PvP until character is approved", to prevent something like that from happening. I've been here for a long time, and I get where Yuan is coming from about having a community. I think the current system focuses too much on the individual, it's about getting higher ranks. There were older timelines, like TL 5 that were bustling with activity. We're things a bit chaotic, yes, but there were loads of great stories being told.

    I have never cared for the main storyline in the timelines that I've been around for. It has always been a backdrop that seeps in and out of my character and the group I rp with. My current problem with the site is that it's turned threads into fetch or kill quests. The threads in themselves don't particularly matter in the end, it's just to get advanced tech or to grind faction reputation.

    There isn't really anything wrong with this, but I just come here to write characters and interesting stories, my progression is seeing how my character mentally and spiritually grows, the trials and tribulations that he or she faces and how it drives or holds them back. I have never been a Jedi master or an Imperial General or anyone high ranking. Star wars is a wide ranging experience and can entail any type of story. At the end of the day, I come here to write stories, my own stories with friends I make along the way. I just want to have a bit more freedom to tell those stories, without worrying about possibly stepping on or breaking a rule.
     
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  8. Brick

    Brick Independent Player

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    Just to echo fellow RPers and elaborate, I want to state that AT that is acquired through tech and or faction plots are graded more on "difficulty" of the plot, not necessarily on how it was obtained through story writing. However, i don't believe AT plots should be reviewed based on how hard it was to obtain the item(s). Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that some guy can just walk into some place and steal a capital ship. But i think it would be feasible for a character that has gained the sufficient amount of currency to just buy the piece of AT wether it be a blaster or even a capital ship with one thread. All you do is get your money, and meet your buyer, which can all happen in one thread without needing any sort of difficulty. As a person that mostly RPs with Indie characters, i find it particularly hard to obtain AT tech without actually doing plots to acquire it. So I end up having to go through a whole plot to obtain tech that I could of just bought in one thread. This idea of being able to simply purchase the tech could lead to more "heist" type plots and encourage more players/writers to have indie characters without having to stick to a main faction. This would promote more diversity amongst characters.

    Just my thoughts. :/
     
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  9. Faster Than Light

    Faster Than Light The Good Community Admin RP Administrator

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    That would more-than-likely mean that you'd have to have to have some sort of system to track the amount of currency someone has and earns, and when someone makes a transaction, that would have to be tracked and monitored as well, and probably assigning quantified price-tags to tech and probably other assets as well. Where as right now credits are fluff and are vague and usually unqualified.

    And for the later part of your suggestion, you can already do heist plots to 'buy' things, and seen a fair amount done with the plot system.

    Thinking about it some more, since you have to do things to obtain the money for a capital ship or whatever, you'd ultimately be unable to get the capital ship in one thread?
     
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  10. Gamov

    Gamov That Guy

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    This ties in rather nicely with another point I made back in my first couple of posts in this discussion, Moderators should be the first line of defense against wild, nonsensical characters and their crazy schemes. Which, by and large, aren't difficult to spot.

    The feeling I get now, and which I personally experienced during my brief return some months ago, is that character moderation basically boils down "include A, B, C and remove X, Y, Z because rank 1's can't do that and tag me when you're done"

    That's not really being constructive or helpful so much as it is holding a proverbial clipboard and making sure every character matches up to a cookie-cutter rubric before they can get into the club.

    To be clear, I'm not criticizing any individual moderator, or even the moderator team as a whole, so much as I am the process by which character review and approval works nowadays.

    I guess I have realized something during this whole discussion though. And that is... I might be part of an 'old guard' when it comes to online, play-by-post RP sites. I've been at this for well over a decade, closing in on 14-15 years by now, and when I came here during the 5th timeline, the site functioned much like the previous Star Wars roleplay sites I had been part of.

    I personally fell in love with the site and made several fast friends due to the open-ended style and casual feel of the site. Perhaps I'm romanticizing the 5th timeline a bit, as I know it wasn't overly popular with some, but I truly do miss those days. Things were looser and more easy going, and the most I had to do to advance my character's story was gather up some friends and write. I didn't need to submit my ideas for approval or 'rank up' before I could set off on my own grand Star Wars adventure.

    Were there some trouble makers in the mix? Of course. But that's the nature of the beast. You're going to have trouble makers no matter what system you use. But for all its faults, the 5th timeline was still fun. Which is a word I haven't used to describe my roleplays here for a while, sadly.

    I still enjoy roleplaying, when I can find the time, and I still enjoy Star Wars. Of those two things I can be certain. But I suppose I'll continue to observe for now, see where the site goes in the future. I would love to see a return to those more care-free days of the 5th timeline, but I'm not hopeful it will happen. A bit pessimistic, to be sure, but I'll temper it with cautious optimism for now.

    The community seems to be having an open and candid discussion on the site's current state, and what it's future should be. It's enough to give me the expectation that something positive will come from it all, and I might one day find my place here again.


    Now that I've said something that might vaguely resemble me expressing human emotions, let me just remind you all..

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Sunfrog

    Sunfrog Suprememe Overlord

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    Perhaps a system where you have to write a sample post which is reviewed before you can join? I've been on a previous unrelated RP forum before where you had to give a sample post for a character so the admins could check you had a satisfactory level of grammar and writing. It doesn't have to be anything major, it's easy to understand a misspelling most of the time but poor grammar can be difficult to read.
     
  12. Brick

    Brick Independent Player

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    What i mean about obtaining a capital ship was using money from a separate plot towards a complete separate plot. For example, say i did an heist plot containing three threads of pure robbing. I then save that money. Then i get the idea of wanting to purchase an AT ship, i can now just use the assets from said previous plot towards a new plot that now only requires one thread without any difficulty. Simply walk up the the seller, and give him/her the money. Self DM and nothing special.

    As for the currency tracking system you wouldn't necessarily need it. An Admin would just have to review the assets and influence one person has (achieved through previous plots, and sheer Rping) and determine if it's enough for the requested item.
     
  13. Yuan

    Yuan Dominuce of Megadeuce

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    This is unconfirmed, so don't take it for scientific fact, but I have heard from some members that they were able to retro-actively count threads towards plots. So they did the thread first and then started a plot later, counting that thread towards a later plot. If this is the case, then it seems like we could very easily establish some sort of way of counting individual threads towards AT and other earnable things. Not just AT, but I have been thinking for a while that it seems like force-using characters should do plots to gain various aspects of force powers as well. Maybe this wouldn't be a very popular idea, but it seems like, if someone has to do a plot to get a rocket launcher, and then they fight a sith or jedi and all they have to do is use a force push to push the rocket of course and make it miss, shouldn't that power also require a plot to gain? To make it even? But then, that primarily affects PVP, and with the call being raised by some players to not have so many limiting rules, maybe that's not a great idea.

    But, back to the using threads retro-actively, I like this also because, it takes two or more characters to do a thread. That means if you have a plot that you are trying to accomplish, then you have to bring in other players to complete your threads. What is in it for them? I've seen some plots where the assisting characters pick up a smaller piece of advanced tech as a part of the plot, and that works to some degree, but why not let those assisting players count the threads they do for other people's plots towards their own plots? Seems fair, and seems like it would help to encourage players to assist each other with plots more often.
     
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  14. Saul Perth

    Saul Perth Winning

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    I wanted to first of all show my support for this, I think having separate boards for different flavors of RP is great, and as a point I want to add, I want to see site events having plenty of RPs of all types that actually effect the outcome. It'd be painful if a group of us worked so hard in non-pvp or non-death threads, only to have that all be undone because the main PvP thread was the only one that actually mattered. This isn't what I came here to suggest though.

    Proposal Type: Rewards adjustment

    Rule In Question: Credit handout

    Proposal: I propose that two new site functions be added, similar to the "Like" function. I would like a function to be added to mark that you think an RP post is of remarkable quality and should be commended, and the opposite, when you believe a post is not up to standard. I think the most important aspect of these features is that they should be completely anonymous. I shouldn't know how many "Awesomes" I've gotten or what posts they were, nor should I know how many "Sucks". Once you've achieved a certain number of "Awesomes", that character should be given a reward of some sort. "Sucks" I don't believe should actively penalize a player, but instead basically act as negative "Awesomes" to the total count. Again, I think this should be 100% invisible outside of Mods and limits likely need to be imposed to prevent this from being spammed.

    I believe this should replace the bonuses given by PvP. All types of RP are still permitted and encouraged, but also rewarded at the same rate based on quality. Perhaps these can also be applied to faction and tech write ups as well.
     
  15. KinkyPrawn

    KinkyPrawn Snappy Boi

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    Sorry I just barged in here but that idea caught my eye.

    Main problem I'll personally have with that system is it will be problematic for people not good with English. Now I'm not primarily English. On the contrary, where I live it's basically frowned upon to speak english since everybody hates the english around here. Combine that with being bilingual and having a suckish vocabulary that hammers down on my ability to write good(personally I think my posts suck in terms of quality). And I know for a fact there are others in a similar situation, with English not being their primary language.

    Then of course there are dyslexic people who struggle with writing a good post that's worded nicely. So it'll be a lot easier for those people to get hammered down on.

    And like you said, there will be measures needed for people to not abuse it which will be nearly impossible. It's very easy for players to like each other's stuff and farm extra creds like that(being a cred-whore, myself, I'd do that XD). So finding a way to not abuse the system will be tricky.

    And I have some personal experience from a system that rewards/penalizes people on their writing capabilities. I was on a site that literally wanted to have players submit their completed threads for "grading"(think school essay style). Then if the thread's literary quality wasn't good enough for the grader the player would be penalized, even driven off the site if they wrote bad enough. It literally tore the community apart and like 90% of the community threatened to leave. So, yeah...also a real big personal issue with a system like that.

    Really sorry if I come off as angry or something like that. Not at all how I meant to sound...
     
  16. Saul Perth

    Saul Perth Winning

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    First off, you don't come off as angry or aggressive or anything like that, and I appreciate the criticism, it's how ideas evolve.

    Secondly, if your posts are all worded as well as the above, I think you have very little to worry about. From somebody who is barely mono-lingual, you're rock solid. If it wasn't for spell check, I'd be in a world of trouble.

    I also want to hammer this home as it seemed to be a major note of yours. This system should have no negative impact in any way. You're not penalized or public shamed or definitely not forced out of the site. This should not even be the primary method of credit gaining, merely small bonuses handed out to reward those who have gone above and beyond in terms of quality, rather than who "wins".

    However, I don't believe establishing limits to avoid abuse is as difficult of a task as you believe. I believe it would be relatively simple to base this on a sliding scale. As you vote more over a given time period (say a month), your votes are scaled to carry less weight. I think a similar (perhaps sharper) scale could be implemented with the same effect but tilted towards a specific person.

    For example, let's say over the course of a month Bob, Fred and Jack do a lot of RPs together. Bob "Awesomes" every single post Fred and Jack make. Lets say he does it 10 times for each of them.

    Let's pump the breaks here and lay out an example formula: A = 1 - 0.1*P - 0.05*T. A is the amount of "Awesome" points awarded, P is the number of times Bob has personally voted for Fred, and T is the total number of times Bob has voted this month. So the more Bob spams, the less his votes count for, until he eventually hits 0 and it doesn't matter. When Bob finishes spamming Fred and moves to spam Jack, his votes have value again, but not as much because of the total vote modifier.

    Here's the important thing though. All of this should be hidden, what the time frame is, what the modifiers are, everything. Perhaps even change the formula regularly. The only thing the public should know is that their votes decrease in effect over some vague amount of time and are encouraged to only vote where they feel it is warranted.

    I also want to point out that "Awesomes" and "Sucks" should probably not be at a 1:1 ratio, so a perfectly average or even slightly below average player does gain bonuses and encouragement, rather than the top half exclusively. If "Sucks" need to even exist at all.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  17. Ulysses

    Ulysses Finding my feet

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    I, respectfully, disagree.

    I think that it is right that the appropriate reward level is the thread or the multi-thread plot. I would say that to do otherwise is to reward style over substance as the individual post doesn't contain the story, it builds towards it.

    I'm genuinely impressed by what is a well-thought out suggestion in terms of mechanics - I just think that it is aiming at the wrong target.
     
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  18. Saul Perth

    Saul Perth Winning

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    I appreciate the complement, but then the other side of that coin is that encourages writers to tear through plots focusing on quantity instead of quality, and also perhaps unduly punishes those that went the extra mile, but the thread ends up dying before completion due to another key writer dropping out.

    Although, perhaps we're looking at this in the wrong light. An "Awesome" system doesn't have to replace anything at all, it could just as easily be added alongside existing methods.
     
  19. TWD26

    TWD26 Member

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    Well to piggy back off of that, as someone that is big on story. What if there was a system that embraced quality and impactful storytelling. Plots could be reviewed at the end and be assigned bonus credits for quality writing throughout the whole series of the plot. These quality standards could display things such as:

    • Presented a clear demonstration of putting story and plot progression above pvp outcome. (This could be working with others IC/OOC, coming to agreements, taking hits, sparing another player, and promoting fights that put more emphasis on pushing a narrative and a relationship between the combatants than writing one that comes off as an e-sport. We have seen plenty of personal fights throughout the series, Maul and Kenobi, Luke and Vader, etc. etc. We should push for creating friendly rivalries between members of opposing factions).
    • Showed a clear and consistent narrative for the duration of the plot. We have all been in plots where the threads seem disjointed, and there isn't really anything wrong with that. But, I think giving bonus incentive to players to try and tell deeper stories with their plots. Reward players and encourage players to create engaging and fun NPCs that seem like they exist in the world, tell a challenging and fun adventure that seems to put the player at odds and kindle the spirit of the epic tales that we saw in the movies and made us fall in love with star wars. For example, reward a small group of smuggler players who write a thrilling adventure across the outer rim, engaging with two timing betrayals, always persistent bounty hunters, and those pesky imperial checkpoints as they attempt to get their famed ship back. Encourage players to get creative with plots!
    • Showed a clear character progression and growth through the plot: This one could be hard, because unless you've been following a whole character's journey it would be difficult to see where a character has grown or fallen in terms of their demons, goals, aspirations, etc. I think a lot of players do this well already, but it could be further incentive to try and tell deep and meaningful stories between groups of players.
    I don't think there should be anything going against players for misspelling or grammatical mistakes. I think after a time we can all see the different skill levels and writing styles of each member after a certain time. I don't think a player should be punished or come across with a beautiful prose to show that they are putting in effort. I just am of the belief that if we encourage players and give them some freedom to make creative and engaging stories it will keep people continuing to come back.
     
  20. Yuan

    Yuan Dominuce of Megadeuce

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    I had a thought.

    Going back to the idea that we are thinking about having separate RP areas for general RPing and RPing that affects the overall site and the site story, should we make it so that all threads done in the main site-story area have to be open? I mean, we have discussed alternatives to death in pvp scenarios in this thread, and there seems to be some real interest in them. That being the case we could make it so that death itself does not need to be enabled, but threads in the main story area have to be open. It seems to make sense to me cause if one of our characters is trying to do something on a galactic scale or make some significant change that affects the Galaxy or a large part of it, shouldn't other characters be free to intervene in order to help or try to stop it?

    Thoughts?
     
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