The Force Awakens - Thoughts and Reactions (SPOILERS WITHIN)

[Green Ranger]

I'm with Kenico on this one. If Rey just had Force powers I would be fine. But pile on scavenging,

How is this bizarre for her? You spend a lifetime on Jakku salvaging stuff, eventually you learn which parts are more valuable. It's not that complicated.

mechanics

Comes with, y'know, dismantling starships for a living. You learn how the inside bits work after a while.

multilingualism

Shall I reference Han's multilingual skills? How about Anakins? Obi-wans? Luke's?

Maybe most people in a galaxy of diverse cultures are raised to be slightly multilingual? Maybe this is especially important in the Outer Rim, because there's no centralized government with an official language?

Maybe Common isn't quite as universal as we've been led to believe?

bo staff skills

Did anyone on Jakku even own a blaster? Seems to me like Jakku is about as far out on the fringe as you can possibly get, where blaster or other firearms are a luxury most people can't even get their hands on, even if they could afford it.

Seems to me like out there, having some form of self-defence skills wouldn't just be important, they'd pretty much be required to survive for as long as Rey has. If she couldn't fight, she'd be dead. Jakku doesn't seem like the kind of place to really allow for much wiggle room in that regard.

piloting

I must have seen a different sequence to you, because it looked pretty clear to me that Rey was pretty much entirely unfamiliar with the idea of actually flying a ship. She understood how the Falcon worked, sure, but that doesn't make her a pilot - in fact she crashes the ship several times, stalls the engines more than once and consistently tries to pull maneuvres that even Han would realize are beyond the Falcon's capabilities.

In short, Rey's trying to fly based on the knowledge she's gained throughout her lifetime as a scavenger. That doesn't make her a pilot.

lightsaber talent

Keep in mind, that lightsaber was calling to her through the Force. This is important, because we're not talking about a youngling using a standardized training saber here, we're talking about a far deeper connection here. Just like Rey isn't just any old individual strong in the Force, neither is her weapon any old lightsaber either. This is the weapon of Anakin Skywalker. It then became the weapon of Luke Skywalker. And then, it reached out through the Force to Rey. That should tell you something about how destiny - and the Force are strong in Anakin's lightsaber, and that in it is arguably all the power that Kylo Ren seeks to find in Vader's ashen remains.

Not just anyone could pick up a lightsaber and weild it properly, but the connection between Rey and Anakin's lightsaber are shown throughout the movie, and it's why she was able to call it to her instead of Kylo Ren - she has an intense connection with it that even a trained Force user cannot deny, and it's what allowed her to be capable enough to hold her own against Kylo Ren.

Force talent?

This is the only one I really agree with you on (to an extent) but if we look at Rebels, we can see that the Force doesn't quite require the years of meditation that was previously stated to be the case. Though, to be fair, Legends never really adhered to that idea either, so the whole 'the Force is haaaard' thing is more of a misconception than anything. By all accounts the Force is actually relatively easy. But it's the mastery, finesse and above all else, self restraint of when and where to use it responsibly that seems to be the true learning process of being a Jedi.

If anything, the criticism here is that TFA basically canonized the way everyone's been accidentally writing the Force to begin with, and is somehow recieving flak for it.

It's not just OP to me, but I think it actually brings down her character. Now all her amazing feats and insight can be chalked up to "Force!" Not talent or skill.

So basically, in summary, I feel like you either weren't paying enough attention, or jumped to conclusions that...shouldn't have been leapt to. And that's my rebuttal. :)

EDIT: Apologies if I come across overly harsh. >.>

 

[Kenico]

I hate to say it hook, but GR has a point...in fact multiple points. I may have to watch TFA again in the near future, but I have to admit with those ideas to take with me, it does make sense. And look at Luke's case of all peoples...look at Ep 5. how long was he on there before he was levitating Stones off the ground? how long did it take for him to have visions? I hate to say it, I did have some problems with Rey's character being OP but in those regards, it does make me question. Now the Force Flow thing (as in when she saw those visions of past and future) I currently call BS on cause really it shouldnt be that easy. cause even Yoda during the clone wars had problems seeing the future. Now does that mean that the Balance has been restored but it has been threatened anew? Maybe, as for the Mind Trick and being able to do it so easily? On the one hand one could say, with GR's statements, that the Force is relatively easy to learn and control but the overall discipline and restraint is the real training, on the other one could argue that She is extremely sensitive to the Force resulting her to be immensly powerful. However the case I found it a little too convinent for her to simply do it.

And before any ask "How did she even know of that trick", remember in her own words: "Those stories...they're true right?"* This does mean that the stories of the Jedi, the Clone Wars, the Rebellion, the Legends of Skywalker and such did make it to Jakku...and on a planet with virtually NOTHING to do other than scavenge...I would imagine that Rey heard tales of the Mind Trick

*Im paraphrasing and may have fouled up on that...

All in all, with that information in Mind Hook, Green Ranger does make a point.

 

[Green Ranger]

And before any ask "How did she even know of that trick", remember in her own words: "Those stories...they're true right?"* This does mean that the stories of the Jedi, the Clone Wars, the Rebellion, the Legends of Skywalker and such did make it to Jakku...and on a planet with virtually NOTHING to do other than scavenge...I would imagine that Rey heard tales of the Mind Trick

Well, keep in mind that only minutes beforehand Kylo Ren was messing around inside her brain, trying to pry information out of her until she discovered she could resist him and turn it back on him. I view the technique Kylo Ren is using is actually a poorly refined type of mind trick, or a dark side variation, that compels a victim to an action through intense pain - while mind trick is a simple, refined and clean persuasion, kylo ren's power is based on sheer mental domination, seeking to override every ounce of free will. To borrow from a commenter on reddit, it seems plausible that Rey could 'reverse engineer' this technique once she learned how to resist it in order to mind trick the trooper guarding her.

Hence the 'might as well try...' line.

 

[Kenico]

Huh...I did not think about that, and in that case that does make sense lol.

 

[The Captain]

Those are very strong arguments. However, let me rephrase my statement. I have no trouble with Rey's non Force based skills and abilities. It woukd be almost illogical for her not to have them given the enviroment she lived in. Adding the Force is what I didn't like. It felt like taking an already intelligent and resourceful character and just tacking on extra power for the sake of it. Plus, now scenes like her running down Finn and those piloting tricks on Jakku can be seen as "She had the Force" instead of "She has skills and talent." I felt it took away from her accomplishments.

There we go, just wanted to get my two cents back in there. I respect your point of view, this one is mine.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Running down Finn and the piloting tricks on Jakku can't be chalked up to "She had the Force." The context of the movie makes it pretty clear that the Force didn't awaken in her in any meaningful way until she touched the lightsaber.

And the reason I say any meaningful way is because everyone is guided by the Force in some way. If you ask George Lucas, he'd say that even Han relies on the Force. Think of it like if a deity was helping guide your actions. Not in a proactive way, but just the spiritual power of it was imbued in everyone. That's what the Force is. Everyone has it to an extent. Rey always had it to an extent, but her actual potential wasn't unlocked until she found Anakin's lightsaber.

 

[Mr.BossMan]

NOOOOO!!!

I had to look my curiosity was to great!

#InstantRegret #WhyMe #CuriosityKilledTheCat #Choices

 

[Nameless]

Just finished my second viewing and I have to say I'm still really torn about this film. I certainly enjoyed it, but I'm not one to come out of a movie hating it very often. I can generally separate my critical brain from my popcorn brain, if you will. With something as meaningful to me as Star Wars though I just couldn't do that. Bottom line, my primary issue is that it really just felt copy-pasted. I understand the "overarching themes" argument and all that but it didn't feel like it was trying to replicate themes. Instead it felt like it was trying to replicate an entire movie. In fact, I'd say that if you removed the obviously Star Wars elements and just released this as a stand alone film the primary criticism would be that it ripped off ANH.

One phrase that I've heard a lot concerning TFA is "movie built by committee" and I really agree with that. It doesn't seem like a cohesive film as much as cobbled together bits of nostalgia and things they had to include. It's like one person was told to handle the "threat" element and so he decided to design a new Death Star as an homage to the OT, then another person was told to handle the "mentor" so he arranged the whole Han thing so that it would echo Obi Wan, and so on and so forth. So instead of an original film with a few key references they ended up with a rehash of the same old stuff. Frankly, the whole thing just kind of feels lazy. Say what you will about the prequels (and I'll likely agree with you), but at least they tried new and different things. Even if most of those things fell flat on their faces. Granted, TFA isn't as bad as any of the prequels (my rankings would be 5/4/6/7/3/1/2, with the possibility of 7 overtaking 6 depending on the next two films) it just doesn't quite do it for as a whole. For instance, Duel of the Fates is one of my favorite scenes in any movie ever. It is the shining diamond gleaming atop a film that would otherwise be a pile of pure shit. There was no Duel of the Fates in TFA though. There was a lot of good, but nothing great.

Now concerning the whole "Rey is a Mary-Sue" thing, I have to agree that those same criticisms wouldn't be leveled at a male protagonist but I also argue that they should be. Cardboard cutout, wish-fulfillment heroes and heroines are not what we need more of in cinema. I will, however, hold off any real judgement on that whole aspect of the film until I see VIII and IX. Luke didn't really struggle with anything until V after all. So perhaps (and here's hoping) Rey and the other members of the new three will have real struggles in the next two films. That's also where I'm kind of standing on the film as a whole. I'm trying reserve judgement until I've seen the entire new trilogy because I feel it's somewhat unfair to criticize a single film too harshly when it might work beautifully in the context of the complete series. Maybe they needed to play it safe in order to lay a good foundation on which to build a mind blowingly awesome structure. That's really why I'm torn. I want to love this film, but I just can't hold back my critiques of it. At the same time I want to be cynical and just say "to hell with it", but I can't contain my optimism and excitement for the next two films.

Tl;dr: good (average) not great, kinda stale, but possibly more than it appears. Time will tell. If I had to assign a numerical score to TFA I'd say 6/10 with the possibility of increasing to a 6.5 or even a 7 depending on the next two films.

Now for the next films: I'd like to see Poe and Finn become romantically involved. I feel like the spark was there and the chemistry between the two actors is solid. It's not a deal breaker if they stay friends, but if that is the case then I would prefer that there just be no romantic arcs in VIII and IX. I wouldn't like to say Rey as a Skywalker. That, in my opinion, would be another example of the lazy safe writing that made TFA what it is rather than what it could have been. Again, it wouldn't ruin the franchise if this happened and I actually believe it could be handled well. I just don't personally want it. I'd like to see Kylo evolve beyond his babyrage into a more cool collected villain. It sort of worked in TFA, but if he doesn't grow out of it in the next two films I'll be disappointed. Anger is good in a bad guy, and unstable "what's he gonna do next?" anger is even more so. I just feel like the anger of a Sith should be more slaughtering an entire village of Tusken Raiders to the last man, woman, and child. As opposed to stomping your feet and putting holes in the walls. Like I said, it worked in TFA but if Kylo doesn't move past it it'll just be sad. Also, I want to Phasma to actually do something. I feel like they built up all of this hype for the character and then kind of forgot she existed. Maybe they could do a cool Finn v Phasma type of thing as a way to display Finn's growth.

Final thoughts: Han should've shot first, amirite?

 

[Kenico]

Yes...Han should have shot first...

 

[Marcus]

Rey kissed Finn on the forehead... friendzoned! That said, it could be the opposite of Luke and Leia in that they start out plutonic and get their groove on later.

And yes, Phasma was totally sarclac'd. That sucked.

 

[Lamper]

The only thing I'd change about TFA is the starkiller super weapon. I'd edit out that death star dopple completely. In it's place I'd have the First Order's motives be far more specifically focused and in the shadows rather than hollywood always making yet another galactic-scale threat just bigger and badder. It destroyed planets we weren't made to care about and it was itself destroyed without us understanding the importance of it since the New Republic's capital world changes and no necessary political figures were lost from our point of view (I don't read any books that offer deeper insight so excluding any information from those). So really it was completely expendable. And what would've been more interesting for me would have been to show the New Republic via a couple unique figure heads hashing it out with the Rebels and calling them war mongers and arguing with the merits of a resurgent First Order. To my point about the starkiller weapon, this quote from Vader that always stuck with me from ANH I think was "the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force" (something like that).

So they'd need to find Luke Skywalker for their plot to overthrow the New Republic to succeed, either needing Skywalker's dna or needing a relic in his possession as a conduit for a greater purpose. In the case of Luke's dna, it could be for either cloning him to create an empty shell of a clone or resurrecting an equally empty shell of Sidious for the purpose of activating/unlocking a legendary relic holding the treasured secret Force technique of the mysterious Darth Pleagus (a plot twist later on being that Luke himself turns to the dark side and can learn the technique for his own purposes - and another twist would be that Rey is able to learn how to open it too). Something to the effect of the locking mechanism requiring the skywalker line's unique Force print to tap into the information or for it to recognize the one meant to inherit the technique, perhaps because part of the ritual of agelessness (which is the technique I'd use btw) is jumping into other bodies and in this case a specifically designated body. But the power would require a whole sh*t-ton of sacrificed souls to feed the dark side and would upset the balance of the Force at its core.

I would directly infuse this concept (I think this general idea of a story arc with cloning and bringing Sidious back from the dead was in legends or something - I don't read those) into TFA so that the movie goes practically unchanged with the exception of the super weapon. The First Order's stormtroopers would then be motivated in helping Kylo in finding Skywalker just as they do, plus maybe they could have been tasked with amassing the sacrificial lambs who maybe have to be specially attuned light side Force adepts; thus hinting at this plot with an unclear hostage sort of kidnapping plot that can be foiled that makes everyone begin to see what they're after.

But hey, I've seen TFA 4 times now with 1 more viewing to go and I love it. Everything makes sense to me so far and I can reason everything out to the best of my ability, so this is just me fantasizing lol.

 

[Noire]

I like that suggestion @Lamper. This was my idea for the climax:

Spoiler: Climax Idea

1.) So, after Rey was abducted by Ren, she would have been taken to General Hux's ship, The Finalizer, instead of the Starkiller Base. Once aboard, however, things could have literally played out exactly the same in regards to her scenes in captivity at the Base. With this change, I am also suggesting that the Starkiller base never exists in the first place, and since the Finalizer is so massive, it could have just possessed an "as-of-yet" unseen capability to raze planets but not obliterate them outright in exchange. Thus, we get the feel that, while the First Order is not yet as resourceful, as powerful, or as massive as the Empire was (in order to have constructed the Starkiller Base) they are still a force to be reckoned with.

1.2) Also, I felt the reason Kylo Ren would have taken her aboardThe Finalizer is a simple one: Ren could have already had the intention of turning her to the Dark Side by this point, just as he did later, and so was perhaps planning to get Snoke's help in converting her by taking Rey directly to him. I do not have a reason for why the First Order wouldn't have made the jump to hyperspace immediately other than perhaps due toThe Finalizer's immense size maybe the hyperspace drive requires more time than usual to "charge up" before every jump.

2.) Moving on, the follow-up scenes could have still had the same structure and dialogue that takes place at the Rebel base; the Resistance plots out their plan of attack, Han makes clever quips, etc etc.

3.) Here's where things begin to get slightly different: instead of an atmospheric aerial battle, like what took place at the end of TFA, there would be a huge space battle that takes place outside of the Finalizer in order to distract those inside long enough for Han, Chewie, and Finn to board. Again, once they were onboard I would have the same sequence of events play out UNTIL Han is killed. I would then have Chewie wound Kylo Ren (as he already does), which allows for Finn and Rey to escape to emergency shuttle pods and jettison off from the ship, while Chewie escapes with the Falcon.

4.) Finn/Rey would then crash on a snowy ice planet that the Finalizer is in orbit around (because, once again, I just loved the look of the final battle in terms of atmosphere, the lightsabers striking solid ground, etc). Kylo, either taking his own ship or using an escape pod himself, follows them, landing not too far away, and the exact same duel happens. However, maybe instead of having Ren defeated in combat as he was in the film, Poe Dameron swoops down majestically alongside the Falcon and begins firing at Ren (which would serve as payback for the torture he endured at the hands of Ren at the start of the film) and this provides enough distraction for Ren and Finn to hightail it out of there on the Falcon and escape.

 

[Lamper]

I like that suggestion @Lamper. This was my idea for the climax:

Spoiler: Climax Idea

1.) So, after Rey was abducted by Ren, she would have been taken to General Hux's ship, The Finalizer, instead of the Starkiller Base. Once aboard, however, things could have literally played out exactly the same in regards to her scenes in captivity at the Base. With this change, I am also suggesting that the Starkiller base never exists in the first place, and since the Finalizer is so massive, it could have just possessed an "as-of-yet" unseen capability to raze planets but not obliterate them outright in exchange. Thus, we get the feel that, while the First Order is not yet as resourceful, as powerful, or as massive as the Empire was (in order to have constructed the Starkiller Base) they are still a force to be reckoned with.

1.2) Also, I felt the reason Kylo Ren would have taken her aboardThe Finalizer is a simple one: Ren could have already had the intention of turning her to the Dark Side by this point, just as he did later, and so was perhaps planning to get Snoke's help in converting her by taking Rey directly to him. I do not have a reason for why the First Order wouldn't have made the jump to hyperspace immediately other than perhaps due toThe Finalizer's immense size maybe the hyperspace drive requires more time than usual to "charge up" before every jump.

2.) Moving on, the follow-up scenes could have still had the same structure and dialogue that takes place at the Rebel base; the Resistance plots out their plan of attack, Han makes clever quips, etc etc.

3.) Here's where things begin to get slightly different: instead of an atmospheric aerial battle, like what took place at the end of TFA, there would be a huge space battle that takes place outside of the Finalizer in order to distract those inside long enough for Han, Chewie, and Finn to board. Again, once they were onboard I would have the same sequence of events play out UNTIL Han is killed. I would then have Chewie wound Kylo Ren (as he already does), which allows for Finn and Rey to escape to emergency shuttle pods and jettison off from the ship, while Chewie escapes with the Falcon.

4.) Finn/Rey would then crash on a snowy ice planet that the Finalizer is in orbit around (because, once again, I just loved the look of the final battle in terms of atmosphere, the lightsabers striking solid ground, etc). Kylo, either taking his own ship or using an escape pod himself, follows them, landing not too far away, and the exact same duel happens. However, maybe instead of having Ren defeated in combat as he was in the film, Poe Dameron swoops down majestically alongside the Falcon and begins firing at Ren (which would serve as payback for the torture he endured at the hands of Ren at the start of the film) and this provides enough distraction for Ren and Finn to hightail it out of there on the Falcon and escape.

That would've totally worked for me, bro. It would've given the First Order more of an origin from our perspective and time to grow into the Empire's shoes in terms of size and strength without the sudden magical creation of an unnecessarily gratuitous planet-wide super weapon (that wouldn't be able to rotate in every direction and disrupt its orbit to take aim at various distant planets btw). And it would've played into the theme of "awakening" not just in terms of Rey but also just people, to whom the Force is connected and affected by to one of Green Ranger's earlier points - so the New Repub would be awakening to the threat of an awakening First Order, etc and so forth.

And yeah, I'm 100% with you for the final fight. Great atmosphere. They did that very well. I think I would've liked it even better if Ren wasn't defeated, as you suggest too. And with the Han-style rescue at the end like in ANH for Poe just before Chewie picks them up, Poe would've gotten a little more something in and I like that too.

It's just that Starkiller Base... Like. Really? lol

 

[The Captain]

Off topic time!!

Take a look at the behind the scenes section of Poe Dameron's page on Wookieepedia. It heavily implies Poe is attracted to Finn.

 

[Kenico]

Looks up the page...well ill be dammed...you're right...Interesting lol

 

[Brandon Rhea]

I helped write that bit. It's less an implication and more an acknowledgement on the cultural speculation around Poe.

 

[Kenico]

Two things popped into my head as of late and this is the only thread, seeing these two things involve this...

1: It has been said, to my knowledge, that the reason only a Force Sensitive like Jedi and Sith can wield a lightsaber due to the fact that they are able to not only channel their force abilities into the saber but that their Force Sense allows them from lopping their own limbs off from swinging around what amounts to a plasma blade around. And I am referencing an Article concerning the topic, though I cannot find it at this current time

2: Finn is CLEARLY seen using the lightsaber to full competency and full potential. He shows that he has some skill and he wields that as if he was a Jedi...and yet he is not Force Sensitive.

So the question is: Is the conventional wisdom, that lightsabers cannot be wielded by Non Force Sensitives, wrong?!

 

[The Captain]

Two things popped into my head as of late and this is the only thread, seeing these two things involve this...

1: It has been said, to my knowledge, that the reason only a Force Sensitive like Jedi and Sith can wield a lightsaber due to the fact that they are able to not only channel their force abilities into the saber but that their Force Sense allows them from lopping their own limbs off from swinging around what amounts to a plasma blade around. And I am referencing an Article concerning the topic, though I cannot find it at this current time

2: Finn is CLEARLY seen using the lightsaber to full competency and full potential. He shows that he has some skill and he wields that as if he was a Jedi...and yet he is not Force Sensitive.

So the question is: Is the conventional wisdom, that lightsabers cannot be wielded by Non Force Sensitives, wrong?!

Well, since nothing like that was said in the movie/tv universes and both have featured non Force-sensitives using lightsabers skillfully, I'm calling it bantha poodoo

 

[Brandon Rhea]

That was an EU idea that's been contradicted by canon, so yeah it's wrong.

 

[Kenico]

Thank you ladies and gentlemen of the SW Community, you have been a big help :D

so that means, thanks to this new cannon, that now even a Non Force Sensitive...with the PROPER training mind you...can wield a lightsaber now...therefore, the current rule (on this site concerning the matter) that only force sensitives can use lightsabers has been rendered null...