Dark Side Corruption and You

[Baobhan]

What we really need is more information, the potential for it to be there is there, but we just need a massive info dump on the matter as there have been little 'teases' to the idea of neutral force users and how they work in the new canon. But without like, a 4k word essay from official sources. It's all just potential, so, it would be up to us to make an intermediary consensus. Which is where the rule of cool comes in xD

If you wanna be neutral, just do it.

 

[Undine]

I also ascribe to Katarn's views on the matter, and intent is an integral aspect of every character's actions, which in my opinion falls under their philosophy, which in and of itself can lead that character more in the direction of the light or the dark. There is also a difference between using telepathy to communicate, which is't light or dark, it's just a form of communication, and invading another's mind against their will, which is clearly born out of a darker intent and nature.

But I also want to point out that even with good intent, such as defending oneself or another, killing someone will still leave a lasting effect on an individual's psychology. A Jedi that reaches out with the Force and snaps the neck of some random pirate in order to save the life of their padawan is still going to have some emotional baggage over it, whether he realize it or not. Being forced to act against one's own ideal and morality has lasting effects, when this is applied to Force sensitives, their connection to the Force is also affected.

Intent, philosophy, personal alignment (as in archetypes, ie: True Neutral, Chaotic Good), individual ideals and morality all take a part in how they affect a particular action, as well as the psychological ramifications associated with said action. The way I see it, being a light/dark sider or even being neutral is just another layer to an individual's personal philosophy and psychological leanings. While intent does have it's place in determining the alignment of a particular action, at it's core telepathy is not inherently good or bad, it just is, and "neutral" is just the word we use to describe such things that are not inherently one way or the other in a two sided conflict, in this case a conflict of ideology and morality. Just because the intent behind it's use falls one way or the other, it doesn't make the ability itself light or dark.

I feel like your trying to say an ability can't be neutral if someone happens to use it a certain way. Force sense is just that, extrasensory perception, sure you could use it to listen in on private conversations, or some sort of other mischief, but that doesn't mean it's bad, in fact it still isn't. You have to distinguish between the ability and the intent, in the case of Kylo Ren, his use of telepathy wasn't dark, his intent was, the purpose behind its usage and the method of its utilization was what was dark side oriented. This is also true in reverse.

There is also a scene from the Clone Wars show that shows what I'm trying to explain. Link. In this scene we see Anakin, Mace Windu, and Obi-Wan work together to invade the mind of Cad Bane, forcing him to comply with their demands. While their intent was just, their actions were not. I would consider what they did to be more dark side oriented because their actions betray their ideals. (A dark sider saving an innocent child could go against their ideals and thus push them closer to the light.) But you also have to look at that entire scene, the darker tones to, Cad Bane's pained expressions, and the facial expressions of the Jedi, anger and frustration, all give the scene a darker undertone. While mind trick, an aspect of telepathy can be both good, bad, or neither, and their intent was just, they still gave in to their emotions of anger and frustration, leading them to commit a violation of their own ideals because of a rash idea from Anakin, no surprise there really.

Again, you have to distinguish between intent and ability, as well as other aspects such as personal morality. I doubt Anakin felt bad about what happened, but I have no doubt Obi-Wan and Mace spent a bit of time meditating and reflecting over it, not to mention Ashoka's response when Cad Bane started telling the Jedi to get out of his head. The camera even focuses in on her at this point as she looks at her masters with fearful expressions, like she doesn't recognize them.​

 

[Arcangel]

FTR I'm not arguing that certain powers aren't inherently light or dark (though I subscribe to the Katarn school of thought on that - intent and application defines light/darkness in most cases),

I think its important that we remember Katarn's school of thought is no longer canon, so we cant really apply it.

 

[Undine]

@Arclight I'm assuming Green was referring to it to give context, not as a reference.

EDIT: In regard to "core" abilities not being factual, at it's most basic form, Force sensitivity requires at least the presence of an innate Force Sense ability. Although I wasn't actually referring to "core" abilities, more just giving examples of abilities showcased on all sides. Telepathy, Mind Trick, Force Stealth, Art of Movement, and the like. I mentioned them because if both light and dark siders can utilize them without any hinderance, then I think it's safe to assume a neutral character would be able to as well.​

 

[Green Ranger]

What we really need is more information, the potential for it to be there is there, but we just need a massive info dump on the matter as there have been little 'teases' to the idea of neutral force users and how they work in the new canon. But without like, a 4k word essay from official sources. It's all just potential, so, it would be up to us to make an intermediary consensus. Which is where the rule of cool comes in xD

If you wanna be neutral, just do it.

Basically the crux of my original post was basically this - that we lack any information whatsoever on what makes a 'Force neutral' so to speak. There's no philosophy or how to or anything - we know how a Jedi accesses their powers through calm and years of practice and meditation, and we know that a Sith accesses their powers through their passions and baser emotions, bending it to their will forcefully and agressively. So...does that mean Force neutrality relies on the user to be...what, mildly upset? Moderately annoyed? Somewhat unhappy?

In short, when this was written, and even now, there is no how-to on neutrality. And that's a major problem in addressing the question of writing one, because essentially it gives all neutral power without restriction or limitation. Which is, as I mentioned in my original post, fairly cheap and rather boring.

I also ascribe to Katarn's views on the matter, and intent is an integral aspect of every character's actions, which in my opinion falls under their philosophy, which in and of itself can lead that character more in the direction of the light or the dark. There is also a difference between using telepathy to communicate, which is't light or dark, it's just a form of communication, and invading another's mind against their will, which is clearly born out of a darker intent and nature.

But I also want to point out that even with good intent, such as defending oneself or another, killing someone will still leave a lasting effect on an individual's psychology. A Jedi that reaches out with the Force and snaps the neck of some random pirate in order to save the life of their padawan is still going to have some emotional baggage over it, whether he realize it or not. Being forced to act against one's own ideal and morality has lasting effects, when this is applied to Force sensitives, their connection to the Force is also affected.

Intent, philosophy, personal alignment (as in archetypes, ie: True Neutral, Chaotic Good), individual ideals and morality all take a part in how they affect a particular action, as well as the psychological ramifications associated with said action. The way I see it, being a light/dark sider or even being neutral is just another layer to an individual's personal philosophy and psychological leanings. While intent does have it's place in determining the alignment of a particular action, at it's core telepathy is not inherently good or bad, it just is, and "neutral" is just the word we use to describe such things that are not inherently one way or the other in a two sided conflict, in this case a conflict of ideology and morality. Just because the intent behind it's use falls one way or the other, it doesn't make the ability itself light or dark.

I feel like your trying to say an ability can't be neutral if someone happens to use it a certain way. Force sense is just that, extrasensory perception, sure you could use it to listen in on private conversations, or some sort of other mischief, but that doesn't mean it's bad, in fact it still isn't. You have to distinguish between the ability and the intent, in the case of Kylo Ren, his use of telepathy wasn't dark, his intent was, the purpose behind its usage and the method of its utilization was what was dark side oriented. This is also true in reverse.

There is also a scene from the Clone Wars show that shows what I'm trying to explain. Link. In this scene we see Anakin, Mace Windu, and Obi-Wan work together to invade the mind of Cad Bane, forcing him to comply with their demands. While their intent was just, their actions were not. I would consider what they did to be more dark side oriented because their actions betray their ideals. (A dark sider saving an innocent child could go against their ideals and thus push them closer to the light.) But you also have to look at that entire scene, the darker tones to, Cad Bane's pained expressions, and the facial expressions of the Jedi, anger and frustration, all give the scene a darker undertone. While mind trick, an aspect of telepathy can be both good, bad, or neither, and their intent was just, they still gave in to their emotions of anger and frustration, leading them to commit a violation of their own ideals because of a rash idea from Anakin, no surprise there really.

Again, you have to distinguish between intent and ability, as well as other aspects such as personal morality. I doubt Anakin felt bad about what happened, but I have no doubt Obi-Wan and Mace spent a bit of time meditating and reflecting over it, not to mention Ashoka's response when Cad Bane started telling the Jedi to get out of his head. The camera even focuses in on her at this point as she looks at her masters with fearful expressions, like she doesn't recognize them.​

I feel like you need to re-read my original post, because you're mixing some stuff up in here - essentially I think you're adding your own opinions on the Force spectrum to a write-up that intentionally doesn't acknowledge the existence of Force neutrality.

Basically the tl;dr of my post is that Light and Dark are not two sides to a coin, and neutrality is not the coin's edge. I reject that notion in its entirety until canon sources can explain it properly. Instead I suggest that you have the Force (ie the 'Light Side', but just think of it as *the* Force for the sake of this explanation), and then you've got the Dark Side, which is the corrupted version of the Force. It's not good and evil and neutral because it's a cosmic energy and it's not bound to morality - it has different rules, which is why I suggest to treat character driven intent and motivation as separate from Light and Dark.

@Arclight I'm assuming Green was referring to it to give context, not as a reference.

^This.

Side note though Undine, the center alignment makes it a pain in the ass to quote you.

 

[Undine]

Side note though Undine, the center alignment makes it a pain in the ass to quote you.

Sidenote, it's almost like I center it on purpose... Actually no, it's easier on my eyes, as silly as that sounds, Having blank spaces between lines of text strains my sight. Breaks in between the dialogue of multiple characters for example, or the one separating this section from the one below.

I think we've had similar discussions in the past, and while our friendly little spats have never turned aggressive, thankfully so, we always seem to come to the same sort of disagreements, which is fine. I respect your thoughts and opinions on the matter, I agree with most of them, but I rather doubt we'll ever agree fully, at least on this type of topic. To that end, I'd rather not have my first major input on the site since my return to be an exercise in futility, especially so since it's also an exercise in repetition. Agree to disagree then?​

 

[Green Ranger]

Killjoy. D:

 

[Undine]

Killjoy. D:

What? Me? Never. :rolleyes: