Other Public Rules Proposals

Discussion in 'General OOC Chat' started by Yuan, Aug 28, 2019.

  1. Braden Drake

    Braden Drake King of the Castle

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    My answer to Phoneix is pretty much what Brandon said. Having a system were a massive event/action (Killing the Emperor, Winning the Great Hunt, Etc) Increases your level to 3/4. And vice-versa, if you get overthrown or go into hiding it subsequently drops down.

    I think you could tie this into a relative power=rank system. But the system should not be extremely stringent, following Phoneix's example, a Padawan should be able to challenge the Sith Emperor, but it will be extremely difficult almost impossible. I know some PvP can be salty, but I think overall people have the common sense to understand the difference in power an Emperor would have to a Padawan.
     
  2. Dread

    Dread Lots of Love

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    I like this idea. I think it'll motivate people to take more risks and do something big in the roleplay, or just feel rewarded for their contributions. Maybe we'll see more new people hit level four that way too. We've had a lot of the same people hit it each timeline, and a lot of the same people left in the dust because of their lack of PvP skills or slower posting speeds. My other suggestion is to worry less about how many level fours there are. Rewarding people for contributing greatly to the story/more badasses running around that add to that story > making level four this rare goal to grind towards imo.
     
  3. Brandon Rhea

    Brandon Rhea Site Owner Site Owner

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    Yeah, I like the level system, but to me the level system should be a way to guide your storytelling. It shouldn't restrict it, and you shouldn't have to grind for it, it should be a reflection of how your character is growing and their story is evolving.
     
  4. Phoenix

    Phoenix Peon

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    So I've been giving some thought to the current PvP system and the level system since I feel a lot of people are unsatisfied. What I'm about to write may or may not be relevant (especially if the level system gets hugely altered or removed from PvP), but I think there are good things about the levels in PvP and I'd rather not see them removed entirely. So here's some suggestions that I think might keep the better parts while getting rid of the worse parts. Apologies in advance for the length of this, but the proposal is the important stuff and everything below is just the justification.

    Intention and Proposal
    So the intention of these changes in general is mostly twofold: 1) make fights feel more like Star Wars again and 2) make the system simpler by eliminating what has become a very extensive list of rules.

    • Trim the system back to 3 levels. There are numerous reasons that I think this is a good idea that are lesser and won't really touch on, but the biggest reason I think it's a good idea is that it helps "tighten" up the levels.
    • Make the levels less rigid. Right now you have to be X level to do X/Y/Z (using two force powers or using this that or the other Force power for instance). There's also a lot of misconception about what constitutes an "equal" fight and people don't really know how to implement that. By making the levels more fluid you can eliminate this (more on why this is a good thing below)
    • Lower the credits for level 2 back to 500 credits again

    As I said earlier by eliminating one of the levels you "tighten up" the power distribution. The only really big power gap would be between a level 3 and a level 1 in a 1v1. In the proposed system (and still more or less what it is now) a level 3 would be twice as powerful as a level 1. A level 2 would be intermediate to the two (1.5x as powerful as a level 1).

    Okay so I've thrown some numbers out that don't necessarily mean very much, so how would that actually play out? When a level 2 is fighting a level 1 they would be treated as slightly more powerful. When a level 2 is fighting a level 3 they would be treated as slightly weaker. When I say slightly, it would be slight enough that the higher level can't just say "I overpower you whenever I want." If they both went toe to toe on pulling the same item, the higher level would be able to move the item but it would be a struggle rather than a blatant overpowering.

    So what's the benefit of this? It causes people to actually go back to dueling Star Wars style where there are saber duels with Force powers mixed in. The "advantage" that upper levels have in hiding in cover and spamming Force powers (which is pretty much the current meta) is eliminated. This is also beneficial for balancing levels in fights. If you want to do a level 2 and level 1 vs. a pair of level 1s in a thread it creates a smaller difference in the power differential (read: not every fight has to have perfectly equal levels, which is usually pretty impractical and doesn't necessarily result in a fair fight). Being within 1 level of another person means that the fights are still more or less equal, which allows the emphasis to be placed on balancing the number of people in threads rather than the number of levels (which imo just doesn't work well at all because bodies is as important as levels).

    I can hear you now: if the power differential is so minimal then why have levels at all? Because what you still get is the top and bottom differential. So a high level character who has worked up through the ranks is going to be able to still easily defeat a fresh Padawan or Acolyte. Basically a 2 level difference is where you would start to first see some very noticeable power difference.

    So why do away with the rigidity? Because that helps close up that level difference as well. By not putting hard limits on things (level 3 can use two force powers but level 2 can't) you eliminate some of those obvious splits that make power difference apparent right now. It also eliminates the need for lots of specific rules about this level can do X/Y/Z. It takes it back toward freeform.

    Lowering the credits for level 2 back to 500 is (imo) the least important of the suggestions. I just think it would be nice and would make more people level 2 (intermediate rank) so the level differences are again closed up more.
     
  5. Faded Truth

    Faded Truth PvP

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    Personally, I think the levels abilities are pretty good as they stand now, but I think the credit requirements should be tailored down back to what it was in previous TL. Level 2 = 500, Level 3 = 1250, Level 4 = 2800. The fact that we have no level 4s this TL and only a handful of level 3s should indicate that the requirements are too much of a grind.

    Yes, it should be difficult to get to high levels but not this difficult. I'm a firm believer in that MMO RPs (which I believe this site falls into), should be about the grind to the top and the End Game potential. End Game is the RP you get at high levels where you can do tougher PvPs and tougher DM opposition due to your higher level and higher power / gear.
     
  6. Yuan

    Yuan Dominuce of Megadeuce

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    I like this idea a lot by the way. Creates a more story-driven site, I think.


    @Phoenix @Faded Truth

    I like both your points and think they should be considered for implementation. You two are some of the most prevelent PvPers around, and I would be interested in hearing your opinions on my proposals (way back towards the beginning of this thread) on non-combat PvP and Death-Alternative PvP as a way to make the system more attractive to those who have shied away from PvP in the past? I am interested in what the pro-PvPers think. I will quote my post below.
     
  7. Yuan

    Yuan Dominuce of Megadeuce

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  8. Phoenix

    Phoenix Peon

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    @Yuan

    I like the idea of non-Combat threads that risk a non-combat character's power and reputation. I think this could be a fun system to implement if a bit tricky. Much of the combat style threads sound similar to what we have now, which I don't have an objection to.

    I think the biggest drawback to this, which you've already mentioned, is that it requires a lot of DM power, which can be really difficult to drum up. That makes me concerned about the longevity of the process.
     
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  9. Ediwa

    Ediwa Godspeed

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    Right now you can create plots in your character's perspective. I think it would be great if you create plot from DM perspective. Some people are great storytellers here. Once they get a great idea that would be interesting for others, they could start the things rolling and have people join their threads. They would lead the whole plot, could have others jump in to DM, create the flavor and all the opposition themselves. In the end they could collect DM credits for any of their characters.
     
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  10. Black Noise

    Black Noise BN

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    I'm not sure anyone has touched on this yet, so I'd like to propose an idea to edit independant factions. I apologize in advance for what will be poor formatting, that's simply not something I am adept at.


    Primary change, make it so that Main factions cannot directly attack indie factions who do not have level 3-4 characters yet. I've seen more than a few factions over the years, before the level system was even implemented as well, getting smacked down by main factions who see them as targets for resources or threats. Give them a chance to get off the ground and get going before being fully engaged. Of course, wave this immunity if they decide to attack a main faction directly, in which case it makes no sense that a retaliation wouldn't occur.

    Secondary change, restrict NPC factions. There are far, far more NPC factions than PC factions, and that's ridiculous to me. To be exact, there are currently 18 approved indie factions, of those 18 only 2 are manned by PCs. There's enough lore in the SW universe that you don't need to create your special weapons manufacturer faction unless you actually intend to use them. I've seen people create NPC factions for the sole purpose of propping up their dozens of ideas for weapons and armor. Is that really all that's needed to create a personal arsenal for your character? Maybe this is something that irks just me, but I feel that if you wish to create tons of tech, you should throw a bit of real story work and weight behind it. Not just a dump of lore.

    Third change, make it so that indie factions can create organic situations that can actually adjust the course of the site story. If enough players want to shake up the order of the universe, why not let them? From the PC faction I see run by Sreeya, I feel as though I can assume she did something with it that created a ripple in the site, but if that's the case I feel as though that's an example that stands out from the norm. I have not seen an indie faction do anything that actually permanently changed the story of the site one way or another in years. Maybe that's simply the result of players not caring enough about indie factions, but I'd disagree. It's been this way for years, perhaps changing it up a bit might make a difference.

    Final change, restrict PC factions intent and either increase their member requirement to get started or set a member requirement. The point of an indie faction, from my understanding, is to create a unique perspective for players to approach the story of the site with. They shouldn't be just a facet of current existing factions. In addition, they shouldn't be just one man deciding he's going to set up his fleet of corvettes against the <insert main faction here> for killing his <insert NPC background character here>. Make it so that it needs to be a group of players, perhaps five? Who genuinely want to shake things up with a new group.

    That's all I have to say on this matter of rules and their changes. The only other thing that interests me is how pvp rules will change, but I feel that either the admins already have in mind what they want or the battle of tython is the testing ground for what they want to change(or revert back to the older way).
     
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  11. Yuan

    Yuan Dominuce of Megadeuce

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    Respectfully, I disagree with some of your points. To be clear, I am actually a big Indie faction supporter myself.

    1. I'm not personally a fan of this rule, but I suppose it doesn't hurt anything, and if you don't want to take advantage of this protection, then all you have to do is attack the assets of one of the main factions, so I guess I'm clam. It might encourage some people to create factions who might not otherwise. I just hope those people don't sit on their factions like mother hens thinking that they'll slowly grow to be as big as the main factions by hiding in the shadows.

    2. I disagree with this. NPC factions don't really hurt anyone, and in reality, they could provide a bonus to indie factions smart enough to take advantage of them. Want to attack, or steal from, or conquer another group, but don't want to incur the wrath of one of the main factions? Just target an NPC faction. They are basically just piniatas full of loot waiting to be busted open. Only thing I would say on this is, the existence of an NPC faction should in no way hinder the creation of a PC faction. Just because there is a black market NPC faction, there should be no prevention of a black market PC faction on the basis of "Oh, that already exists." PC should have precedence over NPC in all things.

    3. This really already exists. Indie and small factions can take actions to alter the main story if they wish. The problem is that none of them have done so, at least not in my time here. They all seem to sit back, trying to quietly build up their resources without drawing too much attention. It's as though everyone is building sandcastles, but they are hovering over them, not letting anyone see them because they are afraid they will get knocked over. But I say, the point of building a sandcastle is to admire it for a bit and then play godzilla and smash it to pieces. A thing isn't beautiful because it lasts forever. (that metaphor isn't to say that I will smash it myself, but I will use it openly and if it gets killed off, then better that it dies in a blaze of glory than by slowly bleeding to death).

    4. I disagree wholeheartedly. There are already rules in place that say that a faction can only be started by a level 2 or higher character, and that 5 other PC characters have to join before it is approved. I say, lower those limits. In fact, I proposed further back that small-groups be added like crews, small companies, political parties, etc. The problem with bigger groups is that people disappear and go inactive, or their availability fluctuates. Smaller groups are more adaptable and easier to maneuver. Let a group of 3 lvl 1's come together and form a crew, and then they can get that bigger ship or other assets they wanted. It gives smaller factions and people in general more freedom to start building things.
     
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  12. Black Noise

    Black Noise BN

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    All*
    You disagree with all of my points. Which is fine, but from what I've seen the way indie factions currently operate they're nothing but useless fluff and lore. If that's all you feel they should be, then perhaps they should remain as they are. But to quickly address a few of your points as I'm not really going to argue hard for this,

    1. Your disagreement is predicated on you predicting people's intentions.

    2. The reason you like NPC factions is the reason I don't, so there's nothing we can really discuss here.

    3. Not really. Can you name one indie faction other than Sreeya's that changed the story in any way? At what point do we stop blaming the players for not working hard enough and start looking at the foundations themselves? Of course, I am not 'calling out' Sreeya in any way, but what I am saying is not everyone can create the immediate groundswell of activity and organize it like a well oiled machine like she can. Hell I'd say I dont think ANYONE can do it like she can.

    4. You contradict yourself here. You say it already requires a level 2 to make a faction but you think three level 1s should be able to come together and make one? What suggestion are you making here other than disagreeing with me? And on the note of bigger groups coming inactive, that's not true in the least. Inactivity is mainly predicated on player interest, not group size. If the size of the group was the problem then we'd surely see main factions going inactive when they get "too big"
     
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  13. Brick

    Brick Independent Player

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    I have an Indie faction and while most of the members are inactive, I’d like to think I’ve contributed to the story.....
     
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  14. KinkyPrawn

    KinkyPrawn Snappy Boi

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    The Exchange. both under Dread as well as Norbs. Had a lot of activity there before they got offed. I think even before Blackwell even existed. And it got big enough to piss off a Sith Lord and an Emperor, so it got pretty big
     
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  15. TWD26

    TWD26 Member

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    I agree with BN, it takes a lot of effort to round up enough people while also getting the credit requirements to try and make it an official player faction. Last Timeline had the smuggling faction that was also wiped out. It just takes a lot of effort that really has little to no lasting impact that a major faction can't produce already. Indies sadly are niche, with most of us just being completely independent from a faction all together.

    And the Exchange was a blimp, they were wiped out almost as fast as they took off. The old indie system wasn't ideal, a lot of titles weren't earned and most factions just went inactive. The new system isn't bad and it addresses the concerns of the previous timelines indie problems. Personally I just don't see the trouble of even trying to go through the hassle of starting one. Its not really worth the effort in my eyes, as some main factions have trouble with getting active members, there is no way I can see an indie faction stay viably active for the long term complete timeline.
     
  16. Pyrenees

    Pyrenees Member

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    I'm sorry for being a bit late on this.

    I like the idea of actions being able to reflect a character's skill - perhaps someone who has traditionally been regarded as a level 2 actually has the skill of a level 3. I believe that implementation of this mechanic will be very important, however. It could result in the ones strongest in the relevant areas get a further boost - note that this is not necessarily a bad thing, but worth taking into consideration during implementation. Another point of interest being how different skills are being valued in regards to characters that can't be put into the combat/senator category. I'm also curious to see how it would best be deployed in regards to the different factions as I can imagine skill being tested rather differently among Jedi than Sith. It would be cool if levels functioned similar to how rank-up requests does within factions but I imagine that system being very intense in regards to the needed work time by staff.

    I am quite satisfied with having credits accumulated through posts, plots and other rewards dictate the rank of a character. It ensures that a character can grow regardless of how grandiose their actions are in a relatively predictable way. Perhaps there's a middle ground where credits are used as a baseline and special level-up requests can be made. Because, while I agree with Dread that a system like this would encourage people to do big things, I would also be sad to see the casual low key players penalised for doing their own thing.
     
  17. Yuan

    Yuan Dominuce of Megadeuce

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    Lol! Sorry, I wasn't trying to be facetious, just diplomatic I suppose.

    1. I don't really disagree with it. I'm skeptical about it, but it could work. I wouldn't be opposed to it.

    2. I hear ya. Agree to disagree, no sweat amigo.

    3. I think there are quite a few people who could do it if they had the desire and the drive. My overall position is that we should try to make it easier for them.

    4. My point is that I believe we shouldn't make more restrictions on PC factions, or at least indie groups. I agree, I think it is a bit ridiculous all of the micro-factions that branch off of the main factions. Limiting those to be simply groups within the main factions would be good I think because at the end of the day I think that they are just drawing activity away from the main factions they are branched off of. But I was saying that your proposals on member and start-up requirements are, to some degree, already in place, and I would rather see them removed than continued or strengthened, at least as far as indie factions are concerned. I say, let lower level characters group up if they so desire and benefit from some perks for group-rping. I think this will promote more interaction in the RP.
     
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  18. Wit

    Wit Beyond Measure

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    I agree with BN on all the points he raised, specially the NPC factions. The effort and time that I’ve seen put into NPC factions that amount to nothing but fluff is just saddening. We need some way to incentivize people to focus on PC indie factions instead of NPC ones, PC factions are the ones that contribute to the story. Maybe have NPC factions not be actual factions, but just lore dumps to provide character background and nothing more. Dont remove them altogether but push the focus from NPC to PC factions.
     
  19. Die Shize

    Die Shize The Drifter

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    What is a “NPC faction” if not an organization limited to lore and the occasional PC interaction?

    If a PC controls a faction made up of NPCs then is the faction technically a PC faction?

    Seems like NPC factions are already fundamentally ‘lore organizations’ and it’s just a matter of what subforum they are placed in.

    Not trying to unnecessarily extend a discussion on this topic, and I’m much more of an outsider looking in so pinch the salt and scatter it over my words at your leisure, but I do agree with the sentiment that NPC factions don’t seem to hurt anyone outright. ‘Hurt’ would be detracting from PC factions, main or independent, but I guess even that depends on the type of NPC faction—a blaster manufacturer on the lore bench that functionally does nothing IC compared to a police force that can be referred to for storytelling.


    When it comes to independent factions, one that was really sold on me was the Deucalians. I spent as little time with that faction as I did keeping up with its current affairs, so ‘major impact on story’ and somethingsuch is lost on me, but I get the impression that the Deucalians definitely left their mark. They projected their position culturally and competitively from what I recall, playing a more unique part amid the Jedi and Sith and so forth, so certainly there are warranted examples of independent factions and others can name more than I can.

    When it comes to independent factions that ‘splinter’ from main factions, well, that does indeed require some evaluation. As cool as it is for the Krath to emerge from the Sith or something something the fact is that the main faction is that much smaller, and in general (but not always) the smaller a PC group the less activity it will see. Arguably, a ‘Sith vs Krath’ scenario springs its own kind of fun but if you have these indies emerging all over the place then you have that many more PC factions to maintain overall and that require their membership lists to be filled.

    The primary goal of any PC group should always be to fulfill the functions of member activity and storytelling (or simply roleplay or overall site activity or what have you), and this is more of a challenge with more and more groups, as I see it as counterproductive. Then, restricting the number and requiring an awesome purpose of an independent faction emerging from a main faction could help, while independent factions that do not emerge from main factions should still have as much scrutiny. But don’t take them away outright. I speak for what I experience, and a faction like the Deucalians had an impact, whether for the ‘main story’ or the faction’s members, so more of that is only a good thing.
     
  20. Wit

    Wit Beyond Measure

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    Wait, deculalas had an impact? On what?